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The Heritage auction...
saintguru
Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭
There's a coin that I sold in auction a while back that's being auctioned tonight again. I think the coin was puttied...I got a big premium for it, and now it's bid 10% higher and has not even come up yet.
I hate to say it, but somone is going to be disappointed if they think it's gonna upgrade. It looks very nice but it's more illusion than substance.
I hate to say it, but somone is going to be disappointed if they think it's gonna upgrade. It looks very nice but it's more illusion than substance.
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Russ, NCNE
I upgraded it to a much better coin one grade higher.
<< <i>I was fooled. It was a very god job. And for the grade it was still a nice coin. I offered it with no reserve. If a buyer wants it there's nothing wrong with that. >>
How do I sign up for your mailing list?
<< <i>people who make a living buying generic gold in MS-62 holders, puttying bagmarks, and getting them into MS-62 holders. >>
Doesn't seem like much upside to that.
Russ, NCNE
Doesn't seem like much upside to that.
Oops! I meant getting them into MS-64 holders and pocketing several hundred dollars per coin.
it just sold.. A tad high...
If you knew what Morse paid for this you would pass out. Just guess he paid about 350% more than it was worth.
1924-D
YOU must BE very very bored Jay
Or die laughing...
I just think when you put a coin like that in an on-line auction, you just pegged the number that it will NOT sell for.
Good giref. BS.
RR
You know that "putty" can be no more than nose grease that's rubbed on lightly to make a coin appear better. Luckily it's the only one I had that was doctored and I had no idea until David Akers saw it and noticed it . The coin was previously owned by the biggest "unknown" collector of Saints in the world! His collection makes Morses look second class. Just goes to show how "good" these coin dotors can be.
<< <i>Hey...it happens. David Hall didn't even catch it.
You know that "putty" can be no more than nose grease that's rubbed on lightly to make a coin appear better. Luckily it's the only one I had that was doctored and I had no idea until David Akers saw it and noticed it . The coin was previously owned by the biggest "unknown" collector of Saints in the world! His collection maked Morses look second class. Just goes to show how "good" these coin dotors can be.
But it's still a doctored coin, Jay. And it should be taken off the market by PCGS. Put it in the grading room as a reminder. This is really bothersome.
It wasn't like it was a POS. It was still a very nice coin...but it was enhanced. If I had known I would never have bought it. DH should have seen it but it was so subtle. I had nothing to lose...and at the time I though it was PQ.
I had a very nice PQ PR66 coin in my collection and was content with it. That is -- until I found what I thought was the ultimate PQ coin for that date sitting in an NGC holder. I bought it and side by side with mine it was clearly the better coin. So I sold the first one. A few months later, I started noticing some very subtle changes on the coin. I was horrified. It took me a few more months to admit that the coin was probably doctored, and I had sold my other one! Denial set in ... then anger... then depression ... (well maybe not that bad, but you get the idea)
Sooooo.... I bought a 65 to keep my set complete and sent the NGC coin to auction where it sold and for less money than I had paid. That was three years ago, and I am still looking for a coin of the caliber I need to match my set. It makes me want to throw up every time I am reminded that I have a hole in my collection when I shouldn't.
All that to say, the best lessons are learned in the school of hard knocks. Going from what I thought was a a PQ centerpiece for my collection to a mediocre coin really gave me a different edge when collecting, and has made me a better collector. Happiness is not guaranteed, even when your coins are in glorious holders. You can still fall victim to the same scams.
The people at PCGS are human and they are constantly trying to ferret out scam artists attempting to beat the system. You can expect them to be fooled from time to time. I don't believe PCGS has any obligation to seek out coins in the marketplace that are problems. Furthermore, in this situation, PCGS has not been confronted on this coin, so no one can say what they would or wouldn't do.
PCGS is not your mama. You need to be able to play on the collecting field that you choose, and if you play in the Saint arena, you should be financially prepared to take a hit or two of "Saint" magnituded every now and then. Mistakes are always made. The question is whether or not you can figure out which ones you have made.
Jay obviously learned the mistake he made, and got that coin out of his collection. Did he have any obligation to try to get it off the market? That is not my call. I have turned coins in for doctoring and collected a refund. I have sold others at auction "as is." I think the decision should be on a coin by coin basis.
Most white collar crime is done by former leaders in the community who accepted money over ethics.
The coin business is maginalized by people that claim foul when they are the victim but a normal business transaction when they are the perpetrator.
I guess we can not find a higher standard to adhere to.
I was very happy with the coin until some doubt was put into my mind. I wanted an upgrade as well. The person who payed big $$ sure liked it too. They saw it. I'll bet half of you have coins that have been messed with. Let's be careful when the fingers start getting pointed. I hold myself to the highest business standards when I buy coins. I rarely sell.
Probably more than half.
Trime, I don't disagree with your points, but I think they oversimplify the issue here.
For those coins that I was absolutely certain were doctored or played with, I turned them in to PCGS. PCGS didn't hesitate to send me a five figure check for the coins. I have also personally seen them buy a coin off the market that was doctored, even when they had no obligation to do so. Therefore, my experience with this company in this area is very good.
On the other hand, some coins are different. Some coins give you that uneasy feeling, and reasonable experts may differ on how a coin got into the condition that it is in. The "issue" with the coin may be so subtle, that an absolute conclusion may not be obtainable by anybody. As Guru pointed out, the "doctoring" may be as light as nose grease. Was it put there intentionally or accidentally? Does that even change your answer? The NGC coin I was talking about had an issue with color. Was it doctored? In my gut I feel like someone did something to the coin, although I don't know what or how they did it. I didn't want the coin in my collection, and NGC didn't have a guarantee on copper color. So off to auction it went.
What if we turned in every bust half that had been wiped down through the years? PCGS would be buying back over half of them.
So, neither I nor Guru were talking out of both sides of our mouths like you infer, and it is certainly not a question of my ethics.
When would it be that there's no obligation to do so?
<< <i>I have also personally seen them buy a coin off the market that was doctored, even when they had no obligation to do so
When would it be that there's no obligation to do so?
When the coin is sitting on the market, and the owner/seller has no intention or desire to make a claim on the guarantee. If you had asked that owner if there was a problem with that coin, I'm sure he/she would have said no.
I don't think PCGS has an obligation to constantly peruse the market and buy up coins that they think are improperly holdered or misgraded. However, their obligation does begin when the owner of the coin makes a claim.
If the obligation extended beyond claims made, someone might call PCGS and tell them half the trade dollars in your set were bogus! What should they do with that info? Demand to see your coins? (Ok, this is a hypothetical -- I KNOW they have seen your coins multiple times)
"PCGS is not your mama".