1878 7tf Rev 78 - Vam 70 and Vam 83- rare?

MORGANHUNTER2

i have for the obverse the Vam 83- Low 8 in the date, but noticed that the reverse is a Vam 70- doubling in RIB, A touching eagles wing and the B1 rev long shaft in arrows.

Is this a common VAM or something to consider for attribute? It sits in a 3 holder now, so just kind of curious as to if there is a bump in value for this attribute.

No pics yet- but by the weekend- I'll have a massive amount of pics and ques to the Vam experts.

buying a new toy..

thanks.

Yale68

Not sure of your question, but look at the ear - - if it is a Type I obverse (easy to tell by looking at the ear), then, with a B1 reverse, it MUST be a VAM 70. A VAM 83 (as well as 79 thru 84) has a II/I obverse.

Coxe

You probably just have a VAM-83. B1 reverse differences can be subtle. A full set in front of you is the best way to see this. I know that years back I flip-flopped on a couple of them until I saw enough of them. A couple were wrong in my spreadsheet until a couple years back even.

DennisH

On a scale of 1-10, the VAM 70 is about a 5 and the VAM 83 is about a 3.

VAM 83s basically sell for Grey Sheet. The only MS63 VAM 70 sales prices I have record of are a PCI coin that sold in May for $203, and a PCGS coin that sold for $215 last month.

MORGANHUNTER2

if it is a Type I obverse (easy to tell by looking at the ear), then, with a B1 reverse, it MUST be a VAM 70. A VAM 83 (as well as 79 thru 84) has a II/I obverse.

Yale- I have 3 78 7tf r78- I do not see a diff in the ear, and no mention is made in the book relating to the ear, doubling in Liberty- there, high 1 doubled -there, longshaft PAF- there, A touching wing - almost embedded deeply into feather. I just took another look at it and there is a separation in the nostril, so maybe its a 79 obv with a 70 rev? I'll have to shoot it and show pics.

I like it as much as my 65, but my thought was for the Vam sets is it worthwhile to resubmit with the attribution to it?

Thanks Dennis and Coxe- info is appreciated.

DennisH

I'm looking at two attributed VAM 70s in PCGS holders; both have the open nostril and A touching/embedded into the wing.

On your coin is there "stuff" inside the bottom of the lower loop of the first 8 in the date? In in both of mine.

MORGANHUNTER2

On your coin is there "stuff" inside the bottom of the lower loop of the first 8 in the date? In in both of mine.

as in the look of doubling, yes but it is slight- not heavy.
there is a small amount of metal just above the eyelid - looks like a mole on the lid itself.

Coxe

What Yale68 is getting at is that the I obv has an evenly divided back of the ear. II (and II/I) will exhibit a thinner rear (rightside) of that split. It's in the VAM book in the design type summary, chapter 6 I think. All of the B1 reverse VAMs have an overpolished nostril, except the VAM-82. The obv motto has doubling on all but VAM-79.

VAM-70 : UM doubling/tripling
VAM-79 : evenly divided ear
VAM-80 : ERTY are doubled down
VAM-81 : all left stars doubled
VAM-82 : intact nostril
VAM-83 : dropped 8
VAM-84 : dash under first 8 (look for clashes too --> VAM-84A)

That all said, one of the biggest oversights folks make in attributing B1 reverses is wrestling with weak 7/8 (7/0 specifically) VAMs, mistaking them initially as B1. VAM-30 and VAM-31 are most notable, with VAM30 being very easily mistaken for VAM-81 which shares the II/I7 obverse. VAM-31 is quickly identified by a doubled left leg (on the right) and a lot of diagonal die scratches through the right leg (left side), NW to SE.

Yale68

There are three types of obverses with 1878 Morgans, namely I, II and II/I. The easiest way to tell them apart is by looking at the ear. An unevenly divided rear lobe is Type II. Both I and II/I have evenly divided rear lobe, but the II/I has a pointed ear fill, and the Type I has a rounded ear fill (pictures make it easy to see). Now if a 1878 Rev 78 has a Type I obverse (i.e. evenly divided ear plus round fill), then it must be a VAM 70 or VAM 100. The VAM 70 has a B1 reverse, and the VAM 100 has a B2 reverse. Easy, huh? Also - - you speak of an obverse being VAM xx and reverse being VAM yy. No such thing!! The obverse and the reverse determine the VAM, not just one side.

DennisH

Morganhunter2:

Now take a look at the olive branch the eagle is holding. Is the 3-leaf cluster at the end of the branch completely detached from the rest of the branch?

Coxe

The ear types are illustrated in figure 7-2 (pg 113) of the 4th ed of the VAM book. Again, note that the 7/0 VAMs (30 and 31) also are II/I obverses. They are easily and commonly mistaken for B1 reverse 1878 7TF R78.

MORGANHUNTER2

Dennis- olive branch is full. my Vam book- 2nd ed. I think I need a new book!

Yale: Thanks on the ear- the one I have of 3- the ms63 has an evenly divided ear lobe, the 65 is not, from inner ear it's thick/thin. the 63- thick/thick.

when I get the pics up on Satiday- I will send a pm to a few to view. I am not good at uploading the pics to this site- kinda wish they would bump the size to at least 100Kb- much easier then to post, so if a few of you wouldn't mind- I'll shoot them over and you all can give your opinions.

I do appreciate the help.

This is starting to be fun.

is it worth sending back to the house for the Vam attribute- not that I plan to keep it forever, but seems like everyone has to have the attribute in order to believe it really exists.

Thanks guys.