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Young people and the future of collecting

Not about coins specifically but many aspects relate.

Who's Going to Want
Grandma's Hoard
Of Antique Gnomes?

Since Kids Aren't Connecting
With Collecting Today,
Answer May Be Nobody
By JEFFREY ZASLOW
February 25, 2006; Page A1

In Graytown, Ohio, 51-year-old Doug Martin has amassed a collection of 5,000 pencils, most of them never used. Some date back to the 1800s.

He sometimes wonders what will become of his prized collection when he dies. Will his children stick them in a sharpener and write with them? "It hurts to think about it," he says.

Young people today have little interest in the stamp, coin or knickknack collections of their elders, so an aging America can't help but wonder: What's going to happen to all those boxes in the basement?

Well, here's an idea for Mr. Martin: "His children can glue his pencils together and make a coffin for him," says Harry Rinker, sharply.


A collectibles researcher in Vera Cruz, Pa., Mr. Rinker, 64, himself collects everything from jigsaw puzzles to antique toilet paper. But he thinks sentimental "accumulators" need a reality check. "Old-timers thought the next generation would love their stuff the way they did," he says. "Well guess what -- it's not happening." He advises: Enjoy your collections, die with them, and have no expectations about anything after that.

Collecting things, once a big part of childhood, is now pretty much passé with kids. Preoccupied with MP3 players and computer games, they are rarely found sitting at the kitchen table putting postage stamps into collectors' books or slipping old coins into plastic sleeves. These days, baseball cards and comic books are collected by adults. Of the estimated 37 million Americans who identified themselves as collectors in 2000, just 11% were under the age of 36, according to a study by marketing consultant Unity Marketing Inc. Most were over 50.

Some collectors say they wouldn't mind if their heirs just sold everything on eBay. The Internet keeps alive a market for many objects by making it easy for far-flung collectors to find one another. But people do fear that collections lovingly assembled will be mishandled or trashed by their offspring. That's why collectors groups are now organizing emergency efforts to keep things out of the wrong hands.

The International Sewing Machine Collectors' Society, based in London, gets in touch with families when it hears of a member's death, so the machines can end up with someone who will treasure them. They're often too late. One member recently died and his family sold his old sewing machines to a junk dealer for $200. The machines, some dating to the 1860s, were worth about $65,000, according to Graham Forsdyke, secretary for the 800-member society. He adds: "I don't know of a single collection that's been passed down after a death."

Young people today amass hundreds of songs on their iPods and, decades from now, may very well be collecting "vintage" cellphones or other electronic devices, says Linda Kruger, editor of Collectors News, based in Grundy Center, Iowa. Or it may just be so much junk. There's no way to predict the future value of such things, she adds.

In the meantime, most young people don't connect with their elders' collections. In Goodyear, Ariz., Zita Wessa, 72, says her grandchildren walk past her display cases of gnome figurines "and show no interest at all." Her 45-year-old son, Scott, says he'd be happy to inherit one of the giant cabinets she stores them in, but the gnomes "don't do much for me. If she begged me to take them, I would, because I love my mother. But I don't know what I'd do with them." (His mom says she paid $5,600 over the years for her 160 gnomes, but their current value is uncertain.)

William Adrian, 72, of Plainfield, Ill., collects miniature guns. He says his three children "wouldn't give you a twenty-dollar bill for any of it."

"Collecting is about memory, and young people today have a different memory base," explains Mr. Rinker, who is well known in antiquing circles for his books and personal appearances. He lives in a 14,000-square-foot former elementary school in Vera Cruz, Pa. He uses the classrooms as storage spaces for his 250 different collections. He says he doesn't care what becomes of it all once he's gone, and if his children opt to use his rolls of century-old toilet paper, "that might be the finest honor they can give me."


Doug Martin with part of his pencil collection.


Mr. Martin, the pencil collector, is unlikely to have his collection stay in the family after he dies. His daughter, Elizabeth Jefferson, 24, says if she inherits the pencils -- which her dad values at $4,500 -- she'd donate them to other collectors or to a museum.

If new generations of collectors don't materialize, the value of items will plummet. That's why marble clubs, to generate enthusiasm, send free marbles to schools. The U.S. Mint has a Web site with cartoons and computer games to entertain kids about the thrills of coin-collecting. Indeed, children have shown considerable interest in the state quarters program.

In West Chester, Pa., Judy Knauer, founder of the 700-member National Toothpick Holder Collectors' Society, gives away toothpick holders to young people. She tells them, "Here's your start." But few get hooked.

Some collecting groups have created unstated policies. The 650-member National Milk Glass Collectors Society -- a group devoted to opaque glass -- holds an annual auction. When the rare young person shows up to bid on an item, older collectors lower their hands. "We back off and let the young person buy it. We want them to add to their collections," says Bart Gardner, the group's past president.

In Palo Alto, Calif., Tom Wyman, 78, has about 900 antique slide rules. Mr. Wyman belongs to the 430-member Oughtred Society, named for William Oughtred, who in the 1620s invented an early form of the slide rule. The group hosts lectures to entice youngsters to embrace slide-rule collecting. But Mr. Wyman says such "missionary work" is a hard sell. "It's quite a challenge to give a talk that keeps everybody awake -- both the 80-year-old collectors and the 12-year-olds in the audience."

Mr. Wyman's son, Tom, 41, who doesn't know how to use a slide rule, admires his dad's devotion to preserving the instrument. Still, he appreciates that his father has promised to eventually dispose of the collection. "He has told me, 'I won't saddle you with this,' " says the younger Mr. Wyman. Some of the slide rules are worth just pennies, while others could sell for $2,000.

George Beilke, 61, of Tulsa, Okla., has amassed 35,000 used instant-lottery tickets. His daughter, Sarah, 23, says that when she tells friends about the collection, "they look at me like I'm crazy. It's guilt by association." During her childhood, her dad tried to get her involved. He gave her tickets and assumed she was diligently putting them between the sheet protectors he provided. But she just hid them in her room.

Ms. Beilke is set to inherit the collection and says she'll donate it to the 200-member Global Lottery Collector's Society. She may hold on to a handful of tickets as keepsakes. "It would keep the bond between us," says her dad. "I just hope she puts them in the sheet protectors."

Some collectors now accept that younger people don't want their stuff. Philadelphia Daily News columnist Stu Bykofsky, 64, has collected the last editions of 79 daily newspapers that closed down since 1963. His adult children don't want the old newspapers, which fill a closet. "The only kind of paper my family wants is greenbacks and stock certificates," he says.

He hasn't been able to find a university to take his collection, either. And now he's under the gun to get rid of it. He is about to marry his third wife, who is 27 years old, and in the prenuptial agreement, there's a clause that he must dispose of the collection by Dec. 31. She wants to store her shoes in that closet.

"At least I can wear my shoes," says his fiancée, Jennifer Graham. "He never reads those papers, and besides, he likes how I look in my shoes."

Comments

  • curlycurly Posts: 2,880
    Personally, I think that there will always be coin collectors in one form or another. My two grown daughters aren't coin collectors but they certainly know that my collection has value. Hopefully they'll keep them but if not then I'm sure the'll sell them properly so that some other collector will enjoy them as much as I have.
    Every man is a self made man.
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    I agree that kids have too many diversions in today's society to focus as much on collecting as kids have done in the past. How can you make a detailed look at your collection if your cell phone is always ringing, text messages keep coming across the screen, and you are trying to download the newest Kelly Clarkson tune?
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • dthigpendthigpen Posts: 3,932 ✭✭
    While such articles always seem to refer to the vocal loud-mouthed majority, you have to remember that there will always be the vocal minority, who regardless of age have the self-discipline and desire to enjoy life, live it a little bit slower, and do what they want to do - including collecting.
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    A lot of collectibles seem to have suffered a significant downturn in recent years. Coins, and to some degree antiques and classic Americana-type items, have seemed to be the exception.

    Many non-monetary collectibles made out of paper products (stamps, trading cards, comics, et cetera) have been languishing for years. It's an interesting decoupling; I wouldn't say it's unprecedented but the degree of decloupling, and the length of time in which these markets have seemed to diverge, is striking.


  • << <i>While such articles always seem to refer to the vocal loud-mouthed majority, you have to remember that there will always be the vocal minority, who regardless of age have the self-discipline and desire to enjoy life, live it a little bit slower, and do what they want to do - including collecting. >>




    There will always be a vocal minority that will take up some kind of collecting but that minority has
    been getting smaller over the years. It is no secret that young people are not as interested in coin
    and stamp collecting like they used to be in the past. I think a big part of it is not only modern diversions
    like I-pods, video games etc. but the lack of a historical interest in things in general. It takes someone
    with an appreciation of history to really want to get into serious collecting but I think that passion is
    missing in a lot of young kids today.
  • It just goes to stregthen the concept that we are nothing more than curators of our collections. While neither of my young adult children have the interest, let alone passion, in coins that I have, they do recognize the importance it plays in my life and the associated economic value. I think it's incumbent upon all of us in similiar situations to make defintive plans on the dispersal of our collections. Just as one prepares a will and trust, so too could they leave specific instructions on dispersing their collections.


  • << <i>A lot of collectibles seem to have suffered a significant downturn in recent years. Coins, and to some degree antiques and classic Americana-type items, have seemed to be the exception.

    Many non-monetary collectibles made out of paper products (stamps, trading cards, comics, et cetera) have been languishing for years. It's an interesting decoupling; I wouldn't say it's unprecedented but the degree of decloupling, and the length of time in which these markets have seemed to diverge, is striking. >>




    The collectable stock certificate market has stagnated badly in just the past year or so. The bottom seems to
    have just fallen out of it. One theory is that since most companies no longer issue them but do all the
    record keeping by computer that a main area of entry for interest in the field is no longer there. One
    researcher in railroad stocks who tracks prices very closely expresses serious concern for the future of
    this hobby.

    I go to a lot of antique/collectables auctions and it seems that hardly anyone there is under 50 years old.
    The large number of baby boomers out there are keeping a number of hobby markets alive but what happens
    when they are gone?
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I go to a lot of antique/collectables auctions and it seems that hardly anyone there is under 50 years old.
    The large number of baby boomers out there are keeping a number of hobby markets alive but what happens
    when they are gone? >>

    To some degree, I think the rare coin market will do the same thing. Let's face it, the people who have the most disposable income usually ARE older. So to some degree, the vitality of the market may always depend on demographics. And as the boomers hit their peak earning years, empty out their nests and pay off their mortgages, it stands to reason that there is an unusually high amount of disposable income out there right now.

    What happens when demographics reduce the number of people in their 40s to 60s -- where most of the money available to propel the coin market seems to be -- remains to be seen...
  • slipgateslipgate Posts: 2,301 ✭✭
    One observation about coin collecting in particular that I will make is that when I was young and started collecting (70's) you could readily find collectible coins in your change - wheats galore, silver quarters, etc. You can't find hardly anything today! So unless today's kids want to collect the modern crap of mintages in the billions (sorry modern collectors - don't mean to insult - just to make a point) then you must buy all of your coins at shows, stores or the Internet auction houses.

    Even CU members talk of going through bags of moderns just to find the rare 67+ coin because that is all that is worth collecting.

    It's like collecting leaves from trees, mostly they are all the same, and hugely plentiful, but occasionally a gem comes by. What fun is that?
    My Registry Sets! PCGS Registry


  • << <i>

    << <i>I go to a lot of antique/collectables auctions and it seems that hardly anyone there is under 50 years old.
    The large number of baby boomers out there are keeping a number of hobby markets alive but what happens
    when they are gone? >>

    To some degree, I think the rare coin market will do the same thing. Let's face it, the people who have the most disposable income usually ARE older. So to some degree, the vitality of the market may always depend on demographics. And as the boomers hit their peak earning years, empty out their nests and pay off their mortgages, it stands to reason that there is an unusually high amount of disposable income out there right now.

    What happens when demographics reduce the number of people in their 40s to 60s -- where most of the money available to propel the coin market seems to be -- remains to be seen... >>




    Yes, the lower birth rates in the generations after the baby boom will probably have an impact on the
    amount of money needed to propel the coin market. Right now the oldest baby boomer (if you figure
    this started in 1946) will turn 60 years old this year, the youngest born in 1964 would be 42. I would
    say most of them are in their peak earning years right now and that is a major factor in driving the current
    coin market.
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting thread. Young (truly young) kids have the natural desire to accumulate things. Rocks to coins doesn't much matter.

    The main problem is the income of the 20-40 yr olds and the demands put upon that income from mortgages that will likely never be paid off plus the new direction of the economy toward offering ...NO...retirement benefits to workers. That severely limits the disposable income in that age group.

    This forum probably doesn't realize the demographic shift of income as it is comprised of those who have ALREADY made a few bucks to satisfy the desire to collect coins.

    As "globalism" spreads, poverty (not riches) will flow to the masses. The few with the wherewithal to "invest" will do fine with investments that benefit from ever cheaper pay to workers.

    The ....workers..... on the other hand will be lucky to have cash to spend on necessities.

    A week at a pawn shop would educate a lot of you to the REAL direction the general public is heading.

    Or even a week in an auto showroom. Or a home equity lender.

    We are now ....officially.... a nation with NEGATIVE savings. "Collections" are ...saved....things. I think that fact will answer the question quite handily.

    We won't like the answer, but I think it is true.



  • << <i>The collectable stock certificate market has stagnated badly in just the past year or so. The bottom seems to
    have just fallen out of it. One theory is that since most companies no longer issue them but do all the
    record keeping by computer that a main area of entry for interest in the field is no longer there. >>



    I make a point of getting certificates for stocks I own, simply because I think they are very interesting and some quite beautiful. Also, I went to a stamp show at Madison Square Garden last November, and at 38 I was by FAR one of the youngest people there.
    M39/10USNY:US1Cu10000:US5Ni3520:US10Ag94:US25Ag65:US50Ag18
    2000 Gallery PPI Registry Set
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Interesting thread. Young (truly young) kids have the natural desire to accumulate things. Rocks to coins doesn't much matter.

    The main problem is the income of the 20-40 yr olds and the demands put upon that income from mortgages that will likely never be paid off plus the new direction of the economy toward offering ...NO...retirement benefits to workers. That severely limits the disposable income in that age group.

    This forum probably doesn't realize the demographic shift of income as it is comprised of those who have ALREADY made a few bucks to satisfy the desire to collect coins. >>

    I think you're largely correct.

    The grim fact is that overall, the generations which follow the boomers are NOT getting the same economic deal that their parents and grandparents got. So not only will there be fewer people in their peak earning years, said peak is likely to be lower, particularly if they have any desire for early retirement.

    Most 20-somethings and 30-somethings who are determined to retire early pretty much need to save and invest every cent of discretionary income they have to make up for the pension most of them won't get, and for the Social Security which may or not be there for them. And even then, who knows if they'll be able to afford the health insurance, much less coins.

    Right now the most affluent and financially secure generation in history is buying a lot of coins. Their descendants are not getting the same sweetheart deal.
  • BurksBurks Posts: 1,103
    I can only hope my children will be into coin collecting some day (need children first!). It would be a shame to see my collection along with my grandfather's, which I will get eventually, be sold off and not enjoyed for generations to come.

    It's kind of odd being the youngest collector at shows by 15+ years at times. There are younger people there but they are mostly being pulled along by a parent or something. Or in my girlfriends case, me!
    WTB: Eric Plunk cards, jersey (signed or unsigned), and autographs. Basically anything related to him

    Positive BST: WhiteThunder (x2), Ajaan, onefasttalon, mirabela, Wizard1, cucamongacoin, mccardguy1


    Negative BST: NONE!
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 29,004 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>


    Yes, the lower birth rates in the generations after the baby boom will probably have an impact on the
    amount of money needed to propel the coin market. Right now the oldest baby boomer (if you figure
    this started in 1946) will turn 60 years old this year, the youngest born in 1964 would be 42. I would
    say most of them are in their peak earning years right now and that is a major factor in driving the current
    coin market. >>



    Indeed.

    Also consider that much of what has been driving the market since 2000 is returning
    baby boomer collectors. These are often well heeled people who collected Lincoln cents
    or buffalo nickels as children. They have come back into the hobby and are buying the
    coins they couldn't afford as younsters.

    Contrary to popular belief people tend to quit collecting when they retire and often
    sell off their collections. It may be different this time since older people are generally
    in better physical and financial health than previous generation. In any case there
    will be at least a small surge in collections coming onto the market in a couple years.
    This will continue for a generation.
    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • [
    A week at a pawn shop would educate a lot of you to the REAL direction the general public is heading.

    Or even a week in an auto showroom. Or a home equity lender.

    We are now ....officially.... a nation with NEGATIVE savings. "Collections" are ...saved....things. I think that fact will answer the question quite handily.

    We won't like the answer, but I think it is true. >>




    The situation in Michigan is one of the worse in the country.

    I see evidence of it on my way home from work as a local church has an outdoor soup kitchen
    set up under some tents several times a week and each time there are hundreds of people
    in line waiting to get something to eat. It is a jolt of a reality as to how some people are living these
    days.

  • I think the high price of the "stuff" young people have today affects our hobby more than we realize. It is no longer awe inspiring to give a young person a Lincoln cent or a Bust half-dollar and to tell them it's worth $100 when iPods, Play Stations, cell phones, etc all cost multiples of that treasured coin. I know my kids have more disposal income and choose to "vote" those dollars on technology and entertainment rather than history and memories.

    So, what can we do? Encourage. Examples of encouragement might be the coin collecting medal badges for the Scouts, a hour's tie-in presentation to the local high school history class, giving a coin rather than a music CD as a present, hold a father/child event at each coin show and other such opportunities. Maybe, certainly the iPods and video gaming may win out in their early years but if we plant a seed of appreciation it might just bloosom somewhere down the road.


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I go to a lot of antique/collectables auctions and it seems that hardly anyone there is under 50 years old.
    The large number of baby boomers out there are keeping a number of hobby markets alive but what happens
    when they are gone? >>

    To some degree, I think the rare coin market will do the same thing. Let's face it, the people who have the most disposable income usually ARE older. So to some degree, the vitality of the market may always depend on demographics. And as the boomers hit their peak earning years, empty out their nests and pay off their mortgages, it stands to reason that there is an unusually high amount of disposable income out there right now.

    What happens when demographics reduce the number of people in their 40s to 60s -- where most of the money available to propel the coin market seems to be -- remains to be seen... >>




    Yes, the lower birth rates in the generations after the baby boom will probably have an impact on the
    amount of money needed to propel the coin market. Right now the oldest baby boomer (if you figure
    this started in 1946) will turn 60 years old this year, the youngest born in 1964 would be 42. I would
    say most of them are in their peak earning years right now and that is a major factor in driving the current
    coin market. >>



    I think you hit it right on the nose.
    And yes, at least from my own observation, kids today don't collect stamps and coins like they used to (at least from what I remember). Only problem is, by the time the effect is felt on the market as you describe, I'll either be in my grave or wantingto sell my collection for income.

    But another thing is that coin collecting has been going on for what...centuries? And stamp collecting is not as dead as some people think (there is just no tpg mania), just look at the major auction firms for stamps over the past 10-40 yrs.

  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ram1946,

    Great post, and I agree with everything you said.

    When I look around coins shows, I see the same relative number of younger people as I did when I was a child; I do not think that there has been a significant change. Show promoters generally do as much as they can to make shows enjoyable for children; the bigger shows have tremendous YN programs.

    I got hooked as a child when I was five years old, and that is the age that I started collecting coins with my son (now seven). He still likes Power Rangers, sports, Game Boy, and even his ipod, but there is certainly a place for coins among his interests. It does not have to be number one.

    We go to all of the local shows together, and when I go with him, I focus entirely on his interests. If I want to look for myself, I go back to the show another day. He has been to big shows (ANA and Central States) and smaller regional shows, knows how to conduct himself, look at coins and has already developed a pretty discriminating eye. I know he enjoys the hobby and the time we spend together doing it. At some point, he will probably lose interest in the coins (as did I) in favor of music, sports, girls, etc. That is fine with me. I have planted the seed, and perhaps years from now, when he is an adult, he will remember fondly the time spent we together and revive his interest in collecting.
  • In any case there
    will be at least a small surge in collections coming onto the market in a couple years.
    This will continue for a generation.


    I look for a steady stream of collections coming on the market for the next 30 years or so.
    This is a great time for auction companies as the huge baby boomer generation eventually retires and needs
    the money from their collections to meet various expenses or their heirs sell the coins. The only
    question is will there be enough buyers in the years ahead to absorb the coins into collections
    without prices falling to lower levels.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 29,004 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>


    I look for a steady stream of collections coming on the market for the next 30 years or so.
    This is a great time for auction companies as the huge baby boomer generation eventually retires and needs
    the money from their collections to meet various expenses or their heirs sell the coins. The only
    question is will there be enough buyers in the years ahead to absorb the coins into collections
    without prices falling to lower levels. >>



    The one thing that won't be well represented in these collections is moderns. This
    generation has generally treated these coins with disdain and for the main part have
    not collected them. There will be a few collection and there will be a few raw coins, but
    for the main part very few moderns will be hitting the market anytime soon.

    It will be up to the younger newbies to absorb what comes on the market. They'll be
    much further along in a few years and there could even be a succeeding generation by
    the time the last of these coins appear. It is imperative that today's collectors encour-
    age the newbies since one way or another they will be the future of the hobby.

    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    If one is looking a coin accumulation as much for investment purposes as for hobby/enjoyment purposes, it may be a good time to be very selective about what you buy and how much you pay...and maybe sell some hot coins into strength.

    Of course, if you're mostly a collector and don't plan to sell much, the best thing to do is hold on to your stuff and accumulate cash until these demographic trends put strong pressure on the market. I don't think we'd see an '89-style implosion, but perhaps a prolonged, slow bleeding. But even then I wouldn't expect values on the good stuff to plummet horribly. Indeed, if history is any indicator, key dates may not go down much at all -- they have tended to be far more bear-market resistant than more generic stuff.


  • << <i>The large number of baby boomers out there are keeping a number of hobby markets alive but what happens
    when they are gone? >>


    The collectors will be able to obtain specimens at a lower price (relatively speaking) becauseof reduced demand.


  • << <i>

    << <i>The large number of baby boomers out there are keeping a number of hobby markets alive but what happens
    when they are gone? >>


    The collectors will be able to obtain specimens at a lower price (relatively speaking) becauseof reduced demand. >>



    Good for buyers - bad for sellers (both dealers and collectors).
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭✭
    Prices go too low and the supply will typically dry up - the reverse of what happens when moon money being paid tends to loosen coins that were in "strong hands."

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