Can someone explain to me the allure of "toning"?

DBSTrader2

Long ago, when I started collecting, if a coin turned into what many of the members of this Forum have displayed as "Toned" coins, we would have called it "damaged" or "tarnished", and have been upset with its condition.

Back then (and, I'm sure, today as well) emphasis was placed on the value of more recent coins' being in pristine condition to have maximum value.

To be sure, a lot of the pictures I have seen shared with other Forum members have had pretty colors to them, and I know collecting places a decent amount of "value" on personal attraction to coins beyond their intrinsic "catalog value", but when did "toned" coins "turn the corner" to such a high level of mainstream desirability?

I still don't quite "get it"..................... they'll always be "tarnished" in my book. (maybe not anymore! I have heard a lot of great arguments in favor of toners here & definitely need to re-think my long-held beliefs!)

I'd be interested in hearing what you fellow collectors have to say on the subject.

Thanks!

- - Dave

satootoko

<< <i>they'll always be "tarnished" in my book. >>

DBSTrader2

Wait a minute! I'm not trying to start a war here! Just curious for some feedback on "toners" and their attraction.................

secondrepublic

I don't agree.

A nicely toned original coin is the real thing - not tampered with. The majority of old (silver) coins that are "brilliant" and untoned have been cleaned at some point, and who wants that? Nice toning adds character to a coin. The silver coins in my collection are mainly untoned, but I'm always in the lookout for nice old toning.

That said, only natural toning fits the bill. There was a recent thread on a $14,000 artificially toned common date NGC 66 Peace dollar over on the liteside forum.

Aethelred

I like toning for several reasons.

1. It shows that the coin is original (in many cases).

2. The surface of the coin will be less reactive.

3. It often adds to the eye-appeal (in my opinion).

4. It is natural for silver and copper to change over time.

Mesquite

One man's opinion. A pristine Morgan is a pristine Morgan is a pristine Morgan - they all (in any given grade) look the same except for the date and the mintmark. Everyone should own a couple of these, but who needs more than a couple? Crescent and otherwise toned Morgans, on the other hand, are unique. I'll take 25 of those (same date and mintmark); anyday. Naturally toned Morgans have a unique character that draws my eye to them. Do not misunderstand, I'm not knocking pristine coins - I just find them tedious, whereas uniquely toned coins I find attractive, more often than not. Some collect VAMs, some different dates and mintmarks, some PL and DMPL coins - toned coins are just another category that fits under the general heading of "whatever floats your boat".

One of the activities I truely enjoy in this hobby is photography. I like the challenge of photographing toned coins such that the photos truely represent the look of the coin. I have recently discovered the fact that quite often the Canadian $1 coins tone in unusual ways. I don't believe these are AT coins (I could be wrong). I do think that their being only 60% silver and 40% something else (nickel?) has a lot to do with their tendency to tone the way they do. I'll leave you with a couple of parting shots. Same coin in both sets of pictures, the first set were shot head-on whereas the second set was shot about 10 - 20 degrees off TDC. To my mind this is one othe activities that make the hobby interesting. This coin actually reminds me of the fireworks display I saw at Bouchard Gardens on Vancouver Island ten or so years ago.

Cruzi

Each and every coin must be judged on its own merits.

Some look good blast white or full red, others have taken on interesting colours, others have turned butt ugly, others have character, each and every coin is different.

A coin that says "Buy Me" can be anything not just toned.

Sapyx

I regard to Canadian dollars from the 1970's, it could simply be a case of "if life gives you lemons, make lemonade". After all, the RCM did a serious botch job with the presentation and packaging of their dollars and sets back then; I've never seen an example in pristine, untarnished condition for sale here in Oz.

So, if the only coins you can buy are tarnished, then you either learn to like tarnish (and start calling it something different) or get out the jar of dip...

Sylvestius

<< <i>Long ago, when I started collecting, if a coin turned into what many of the members of this Forum have displayed as "Toned" coins, we would have called it "damaged" or "tarnished", and have been upset with its condition.

Back then (and, I'm sure, today as well) emphasis was placed on the value of more recent coins' being in pristine condition to have maximum value.

To be sure, a lot of the pictures I have seen shared with other Forum members have had pretty colors to them, and I know collecting places a decent amount of "value" on personal attraction to coins beyond their intrinsic "catalog value", but when did "toned" coins "turn the corner" to such a high level of mainstream desirability?

I still don't quite "get it"..................... they'll always be "tarnished" in my book.

I'd be interested in hearing what you fellow collectors have to say on the subject.

Thanks!

- - Dave >>



I completely and utterly share your view point.

DBSTrader2

Some very interesting and quite valid points made so far on the attraction of toning! Thanks!

I especially liked Mesquite's reference to fireworks over Bouchart Gardens, having had the pleasure of visiting the Gardens (but not staying for evening fireworks) while on a vacation to Vancouver for the Expo about 20+ years ago!

AuldFartte

<< <i>I like toning for several reasons.

1. It shows that the coin is original (in many cases).

2. The surface of the coin will be less reactive.

3. It often adds to the eye-appeal (in my opinion).

4. It is natural for silver and copper to change over time. >>



Personally, I agree with all of this. I like 'em for the same reasons, but I especially like the eye appeal factor. It's just a matter of personal taste

DBSTrader2

So does this all mean I now have a valid excuse to use with my wife whenever she asks me to polish the silver?


Edited to change "tells" to "asks" - - NOBODY TELLS me what to do!!! (although my wife usually reminds me that I'll do it "if I know what's good for me....."

Fairlaneman

<< <i>I don't agree.

A nicely toned original coin is the real thing - not tampered with. The majority of old (silver) coins that are "brilliant" and untoned have been cleaned at some point, and who wants that? Nice toning adds character to a coin. The silver coins in my collection are mainly untoned, but I'm always in the lookout for nice old toning.

That said, only natural toning fits the bill. There was a recent thread on a $14,000 artificially toned common date NGC 66 Peace dollar over on the liteside forum. >>



This about sums it up if you collect coins that are close to 100 years old or older. Some natural ageing should be present. Its sort of like a original Brunett geting some gray as she grows older or as with me a Brown haired man turning Gray.

Don't get me wrong. Pristine natural white silver is very cool. Your chance of finding them original is high stakes though if the coin is 50 years old or older.

The silver coins in my collection are mostly toned to some degree.

Ken

RedTiger

Toning can be attractive. It can be unattractive. Some people can spend a long time looking at a pretty toner. For many people, in a case full of coins, the toners leap out at them. An attractively toned coin may be close to unique. This is more true of so-called "monster" toners than coins with average toning. In the world of U. S. collecting, where almost all coins are in large supply, the notion of having something unique appeals to many.

All it takes is a handful of people willing to pay a premium to drive the price higher. At auction if there are two or more who think the toning is worth more, up goes the price. It doesn't matter if the other hundred people in the room think they are daft.

Collect what you like.

DBSTrader2

More great responses & explanations! Thanks!

So what does it mean if they HAVEN'T toned? I have a bunch of silver coins (mercs, roosies, washingtons, Walkers, Franklins, JFK's, Morgans & Peace) in blue, tri-fold Whitman folders added over the years since I started collecting as a kid, and I'd say most of them have NOT toned! Should I check out the sides that are in full contact with the folder to see if I'm missing something?

Sylvestius

<< <i>So, if the only coins you can buy are tarnished, then you either learn to like tarnish (and start calling it something different) or get out the jar of dip... >>




In the words of Judge Doom "bring me some dip!".

Although i really should stop saying i dislike toned coins because that is untrue. I have a real penchant for grey toned coins, i get a real buzz from grey tones, much more than i do from white coins.

It doesn't mean i've got a problem with white coins or even coins that have been cleaned, i do actively buy cleaned coins and it doesn't bother me too much (at least not with Ancients and Anglo-Saxon coins), when dealing in such fields cleaning is something you've got to learn to accept and embrace.

Although medieval coins i tend to find more problematic especially if harshly cleaned, yet again the grey toners pull me in, in a big way.

I have had two colourfully toned hammered coins though which might surprise some people to learn. With regards to modern coinage i have to admit i find colourful tones; speckling or spotting or what have you, fairly distracting from the design. Modern coin designs generally play the fields off against the device and it has a balance, distracting colourful tones destroy this balance. Hammered coins are a little different, often they are heavy on the design and sparing with the field which can give a really cluttered look that's hard for the eye to dechiper. Greyscale toning can aid in picking out the details wonderfully (as more grime builds up in the recesses of the legends and the design than anywhere else). However colourful toning on hammered can if subtle enough pick out extra details that even they grey can't show.

So colourful tones do have their uses in certain places.

This kind of toning though i just find gorgeous (note what i said about highlighting the details without overpowering the design). (Ignore the stupid red backgrounds)


Eddy



And better still Henry (probably cleaned at some point but toning nicely now);




But yer can't beat;





and finally;




Nearly all the coins i purchase have tones like that, they just draw me in like a magnet...

(And notice no Stephen!)

ajaan

<< <i>Can someone explain to me the allure of "toning"? >>


Can someone explain the allure of abstact art? how about the allure of eating a certain food? Can you really explain why you like something? Toning is just something some people like, some don't like it. Personal preference. I don't think it can really be explained any easier than why I like to som tam. I just like it.

koincollect

<< <i>

<< <i>Can someone explain to me the allure of "toning"? >>


Can someone explain the allure of abstact art? how about the allure of eating a certain food? Can you really explain why you like something? Toning is just something some people like, some don't like it. Personal preference. I don't think it can really be explained any easier than why I like to som tam. I just like it. >>



You nailed it! There are some toners which people drool over which I find repulsive and the other way round! It all depends on individual choice. As Sylvestius said toning certainly enhances certain types of coins. A particularly attractive toning on one coin might not seem attractive (to me) on another! There might even be a biological factor involved in this all. The eye and the brain might interpret the colors and patterns in a different way to either like or dislike the toning. Any specialist on this matter reading this??

Sylvestius

<< <i>You nailed it! There are some toners which people drool over which I find repulsive and the other way round! It all depends on individual choice. As Sylvestius said toning certainly enhances certain types of coins. A particularly attractive toning on one coin might not seem attractive (to me) on another! There might even be a biological factor involved in this all. The eye and the brain might interpret the colors and patterns in a different way to either like or dislike the toning. Any specialist on this matter reading this?? >>




I agree with that. I think alot of it might come down to what colours you like or particularly dislike. I happen to find dark and dull/drab colours the most appealing, whilst i actively avoid bright and vibrant colours in almost all cases (i'm not thinking about this on a coin level but more on a 'how would you decorate your house level?'). Some people don't like gold coins (not because they're expensive and flashy) but simply because they don't like yellow.

Some people like cold colours, some people like warm colours... some people like pink and as hard as it might be to believe some people even like green (yeuk!)


But I particularly liked the statement someone made earlier about a coin being like a man/woman's hair, it can start off a nice shade of brown and go grey with time and age, nothing wrong with that, certainly!

Well that might explain why i find bright lustrous copper so damn appealing, but as it ages and turns brown it just becomes another boring brunette. (I've got nothing against brunettes, i quite like them, but bright orange copper tones purrr.)

SYRACUSIAN

....distracting colourful tones destroy this balance....




....
I still don't quite "get it"..................... they'll always be "tarnished" in my book.....



How tarnished does this one look? How exactly did the toning destroy its balance?




I don't collect Chile or anything South American, but this one (to mention but one), blew me away. I placed a bid at six times its Krause unc value and I wasn't even the underbidder, now that might be insane, but if you don't see the beauty, originality and uniqueness of it, then I don't have any words to add.I will be able to recognize this coin for years to come, toned coins are like paintings and the premium they command has a lot to do with the fact that no other is exactly like them.

As for white coins, most of them have been dipped at a certain time, no doubt about it, silver doesn't stay white forever. Nor do I agree with Sylvestius when he says that one has to embrace cleaned coins, I hate them and don't touch them, but we don't collect similar stuff, maybe if I was into hammered I would be thinking differently, but I'm not.

DBSTrader2

that looks like one of those "colorized" coins on late night cable!!

Actually, quite attractive. If I don't watch myself, I might just turn into a "toner" lover as well!!!!


Thanks, everyone for your comments and analogies, etc! I hope I didn't give anyone the impression that I was disparaging their attraction to toned coins - - I was just curious as to their attraction to so many vs how I grew up thinking. That's the nice thing about this Forum - - there's always something new to lear or appreciate here!

- - Dave

JZrarities

It's SIMPLE for me:

1 - I HATE CLEANED COINS.

This doesn't apply to modern coins, but:

2 - If an 'Old' Coin was rescued from circulation and put in an Album, Saved in a Kraft Envelope or put in a Velvet Tray for many years,, and never MESSED WITH (Cleaned/etc) then it WILL develop some type of coloring. Just like the early commems saved in their original packaging, they develop UNIQUE and IDENTIFIABLE colors. Morgans were saved in Canvas Bags at the back of a bank vault for Many Years and each has become UNIQUE.

3 - These coins have ORIGINAL SURFACES and in many cases show they were CHERISHED BY THEIR ORIGINAL OWNERS (Early Toned Type), or survived hidden in some bank vault.

4 - I will pay a premium for such ORIGINAL coins and the COLORS make them unique.

5 - I could tell you that 99.99% of All Coin available on the market do not fit this category. Almost ALL have been cleaned or enhanced sometime during their lifetime. Some are more evident than others, and I hate the ones that look "Cleaned".

6 - It has taken 30+ years of collecting to develop this level of appreciation. Most don't realize the actual rarity of such pieces with Original Surfaces. You can look at 10,00 Raw coins, 1,000 Slabbed Coins and only find (1) that fits this criteria. The upper level of the market realizes this and it CANNOT be Captured with a GRADE or a PRICE GUIDE.

7 - If I could "Foresee" the future of Coin Collecting and watch it develop like the Sheldon Scale has done,, you will see something that captures this 'Aesthetic Eye Appeal' criteria in the next 50 years. Someone will develop a way to price the "Eye Appeal" and our Coin Market will change forever.

Just my opinion only.... EYE APPEAL IS EVERYTHING. I also Hate UGLY coins.

-JZ

spoon

The whole toning debate (aside from the plague that is AT) really boils down to a subjective matter of opinion. So why someone may be willing to pay "more" for a toned coin is answered by the same phenomena as to why someone might pay for a rock. And "more" was in scare-quotes there because we have to remember that most non-coin collectors would consider us odd for even paying what we, or Krause, consider "normal" for what, to them, is just an old coin.

Sylvestius

<< <i>



How tarnished does this one look? How exactly did the toning destroy its balance?




I don't collect Chile or anything South American, but this one (to mention but one), blew me away. I placed a bid at six times its Krause unc value and I wasn't even the underbidder, now that might be insane, but if you don't see the beauty, originality and uniqueness of it, then I don't have any words to add.I will be able to recognize this coin for years to come, toned coins are like paintings and the premium they command has a lot to do with the fact that no other is exactly like them.

As for white coins, most of them have been dipped at a certain time, no doubt about it, silver doesn't stay white forever. Nor do I agree with Sylvestius when he says that one has to embrace cleaned coins, I hate them and don't touch them, but we don't collect similar stuff, maybe if I was into hammered I would be thinking differently, but I'm not. >>




Personally i couldn't live with that, i have to say.

I really don't mind cleaned coins, so long as they're cleaned correctly (i.e done well). If they are heavily hairlined from being rubbed with a cloth or a toothbrush then it gets upsetting. But if they are curated properly then i'm happy with them.

With regards to cleaning coins i'm a revisionist, i think the "cleaning is the worst thing ever!" is extreme in the least. Cleaning has it's place within the hobby as does toning. It's important to remember though that both cleaning and toning are both damage. Everyone knows cleaning is damage, but so is toning. One set of chemicals can strip toning, one set of chemicals can build up to form toning.