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Reiver Shattered Dies Bust Quarters

NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
CONECA defines shattered dies as three or more cracks towards the center of the coins, these Reiver quarters both have at least five cracks to edge. I found these coins in the online auction after spending only half of my budget in the sig auction, and was surprised they were not placed in the signature auction as they are original and interesting coins.
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Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver

Comments

  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great quarters Nysoto. I'm confused on the auction part though. Are they in the NGC pedigreed slabs? Were there other auctions than the main Heritage deal?
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cladiator,

    Yes, they are in NGC Reiver pedigreed slabs. The Reiver online auction was internet only with no floor bidding, many of the coins were NCS problem coins, but there were exceptions like these quarters. There was no history of these coins other than Reiver ownership and they did not come with Reiver's annotated envelope as most of the signature auction coins did, perhaps this is why they were in the online auction.

    Guesses on grade? They are both 5-10 points overgraded IMO, but still nice coins.
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Those are very cool!

    J
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for explaining Nysoto.

    Grade guesses? I'd say the top two are both in the Fine (12-15). No idea what NGC said.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    The wear pattern on the second coin B-3 sure makes for a homely lady, almost looked counterfeit. The first lady B-1 is prettier. You probably got a good price on these two broken up coins.image

    Nice to see Busties with real character.image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    neat coins

    but i thought you were off the quarters in favor of pre turb halves? image

    couldn't resist the combination of cool and pedigree eh? image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Baley - Yes, I am a sucker for shattered dies in any denomination, especially from the great Jules Reiver!

    The first quarter posted, B-1 is NGC VF35, the second, B-3 is NGC EF40. The die state should be considered, but it is not EF40. Grades for these coins really don't matter anyway.

    The steam press was first used, I believe, in October of 1836. Could these die marriages possibly have been struck on the steam press? The 1836 B-5 also had a shattered obverse die.

    typo edit
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • Cool coins image

    I kinda did the same thing with the Reiver sale... there was one coin with a retained cud I had really wanted in NGC VF35, and I have failed to win it in the Sig Auction... I ended up buying a lower graded, damaged one for about 1/20th the price of the VF35 image
    -George
    42/92
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭
    I've always loved die cracks. Way cool.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt, just say YES to crack!

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The steam press was first used, I believe, in October of 1836. Could these die marriages possibly have been struck on the steam press? The 1836 B-5 also had a shattered obverse die.

    Isn't THAT interesting! Maybe the higher pressure and speed of the steam press broke these old dies! oh, to have been there!

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The steam press was first used, I believe, in October of 1836. Could these die marriages possibly have been struck on the steam press? The 1836 B-5 also had a shattered obverse die. >>




    << <i>Isn't THAT interesting! Maybe the higher pressure and speed of the steam press broke these old dies! oh, to have been there! >>


    Reading through the Craig Sholley article on early US Mint coin presses in the John Reich Journal (2003), Sholley explained that US Mint records documented cents and quarters as the first business strikes used with the steam press. A little too much pressure on those quarters! Did 1836 cents also show higher than usual die breaks?
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Did 1836 cents also show higher than usual die breaks? >>

    I honestly don't know but a quick search on eBay turned up this 1836 Cent with a huge bisecting reverse die crack. It runs horizontally from just left of S1 to center of M.


    imageimage
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,454 ✭✭✭✭✭
    the internet only auction following the floor auction for Reiver's items was quite an opportunity to pick up some nice coins at more reasonable prices!
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A quick, and incomplete, look through the 1836 Cents in the Heritage Archive came up with these coins...

    Obv cracked from rim near S5 to rim near S8 and a crack in field infront of face, through head and to rim near S10.
    Rev cracked from rim at S1 across entire coin to rim above R and a crack from rim above A to just left of O.

    imageimage

    Obv cud at rim near S6
    image

    Obv cud at rim near S8
    image
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Cladiator! The new steam press really did a number on some of these dies, and this was after the die sinking process had improved to the point where the huge die breaks were less common in the 20's and 30's on half dollars and quarters.
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    Despite the CONECA definition, there really is no single definition for a "shattered die". It's a subjective determination. It could be 1) a profusion of long, wide, intersecting die cracks, 2) a profusion of bi-level (stepped) die cracks, 3) two (or more) splits in the die, or 4) a combination of cuds, retained cuds, and large die cracks. Mix and match all of the above and you've got a wide array of errors that warrant the label "shattered die".
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • numismanumisma Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭✭

    Can't believe I missed this thread! Nice thread nysoto.
  • cool!
  • GABGAB Posts: 641


    << <i>Reading through the Craig Sholley article on early US Mint coin presses in the John Reich Journal (2003), Sholley explained that US Mint records documented cents and quarters as the first business strikes used with the steam press. A little too much pressure on those quarters! Did 1836 cents also show higher than usual die breaks? >>



    There are only 7 varieties of Large Cents in 1836. According to Newcomb, only the N4 and N6 varieties are known (at least by him) to
    exist with both dies perfect. All the others had die cracks and or rim breaks (cuds) to varying degrees.

    A report to Andrew Jackson, written by Mint Director Robert M. Patterson in 1837 states:

    "On the 23rd of March last year (1836), the first steam coinage in America was executed at this Mint;.....
    Since that time, all the copper coins have been struck by this press, and it has been lately used with
    success for coining half dollars."

    Though this letter does not specifically mention the quarters, dimes and half dimes, it makes sense that they would start
    on the smaller coins, for which they already had collars, before they got to the halves.
    Golf time!!

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