Altered Buffalo Nickel Mint Mark - Another Example?

LickThoseStamps

There has been two recent threads regarding embossed mint marks on Buffalo nickels:
1925-S and 1913-S Type 2.

I have previously read the section in the PCGS Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection. On page 317, there is an example of an embossed mint mark. The example shown is very obvious. It appears that the hole was filled with Play-Doh! Although there are vertical tool marks, they are not quite as apparent as the photograph in Guy’s 1925-S thread.

Today, I received a 1926-D, graded VF-XF from a dealer. Examining the edge, there are two vertical marks, very similar to what Guy’s photographs show, with the mint mark approximately centered between the two. However, I looked carefully, using different light angles and magnification, for any signs of a filled hole. I don’t see one!

Does the presence of the two vertical marks prove that the coin has been altered?

A more serious concern is if the coin is altered, why didn’t the faker remove the vertical marks? Had these marks been removed, I wouldn’t have a clue that the coin is a fake. I have purchased several other high grade coins from this dealer. He is a life member of the ANA and appears to be reputable. The other coins appear OK, although I am a little leery at this point.

For the Buffalo experts out there, are there any other diagnostics that I should be looking for? The PCGS book mentions comparing the mint mark to other examples, but I don’t have any.

I will try to get photos, if I can shoot them through the oversized 2x2. The dealer has a return policy, so long as the coin has not been removed from his 2x2.

BuffaloIronTail

Examine the mintmark CLOSELY.

The surrounding field close to the mintmark will most often show some form of disruption.

By that I mean, some polishing lines, roughness, flow lines. erosion.

On a GENUINE coin, the mintmark is applied seperatly after the die is produced.

It will rise above any defect in the field surrounding it.

When a mintmark is "pushed up", or embossed, on a coin, the bogus mintmark will display the same disruption as the area that it was pushed into.

So........if the mintmark looks like and exhibits the same qualities as the field that surround it, it is because it was pushed up through the surrounding area.

Refer to David Lange's excellent book on Buffs, Pages 52-59, for a more detailed explanation.

If you're serious about Buffs, and don't own the book....BUY IT.

It is invaluble.

Hope this helps...........

Pete

intocoins

The embossed mintmark will look much like the surface of the rest of the coin. In other words , metal flow lines on the coin will also be seen on the Mintmark .
Another way of detecting an embossed mintmarks is looking for tooling marks. You may need some heavy magnification if it was done well.
My opinion however is that if the dealer has a return policy just return the coin to him/her. If you think the coin is altered most likely someone else will also.

LickThoseStamps

Pete,

Thanks for the additional advice. I have attached some Digital Blue QX5 photos. They are 10x, 60x and 200x magnification. There is toning (or corrosion?) on the reverse, so it is difficult to inspect for the details you describe.

Something that did show up in the microscope photo, that was not obvious with a 10x loupe, is the serif on the bottom-left of the mintmark. Is this consistent with this year?

I will definitely locate a copy of David Lange’s book. I find it hard to imagine that any book can contain as much knowledge as can be found here.

Intocoins:

My initial alert was from the two vertical marks on the edge of the coin, which I interpreted to be tooling marks. Hopefully, the following will help visualize them, until I am able to get photographs. Are there others that I should be looking for?


______________________________
|___________|______|___________| - Looking at coin edge-on

Location of mintmark is between two vertical marks


This place is great! Thanks everyone!

Edited to add url for images:

intocoins

Can you post a image of the coins edge under the mintmark?

LickThoseStamps

Unfortunately, I do not have a camera with macro focus capability. I hope to remedy that in the near future!

LickThoseStamps

Guess what I just discovered ... the Digital Blue microscope can be removed from the base. Now, I can get the necessary angle to show the vertical marks



Comments?

intocoins

Hard to tell from the picture you posted , but the area i see the vertical lines are pretty far from the mintmark . I dont suspect this to be a embossed mintmark, but rather just a gash in the edge of the coin. I would'nt discount it either thou until you could get a second opinion from an expert.

LickThoseStamps

Both vertical marks are perfectly straight and perpendicular to the face of the coin. They don't appear to be random gashes. If fact, the depths of the cuts are constant across the edge.

They are strikingly similar to Guy's 1925-s. Did you see that photo (linked in the original message)?

From a dealer’s perspective, do my concerns justify a return of the coin?

BuffaloIronTail

In my opinion, that's an embossed mintmark.

Those are definite tooling marks on the rim. That's where the alteration starts. A hole is drilled into the rim to a point where the mintmark should be.

Then a pair of pliers with a small mintmark on the end is pushed up into the field of the coin.

The rim is patched up, but the tooling cannot totally be removed.

It looks like the same job that was done to Guy's 1925-S.

The mintmark exhibits flow lines like the field it was raised up into.

Notice how some of the lines that start in the field also appear to run through the mintmark?

That's the mark of an embossing.

The style of mintmark used appears to be genuine, as it exhibits the same look as one on a genuine 1927-D.

In my opinion it's a very deceptive alteration.

Please buy Lange's book and check it. He describes what was done to your coin to a T.

That's how I found out about them.

Hope this helps..........

Pete

BlindedByEgo

It doesn't look like the mint mark is centered between the two rim marks - not that it particularly matters, I suppose.

What I would look for is evidence of a bulge or depression on the rim, and filing or polish marks off-color from the surrounding metal.

You already know this. IMO, since the coin is mid-grade, the mint mark looks right (with serifs), you don't see a filled hole... There must be another explanation for the rim damage.

I suspect rim damage, without an intent to deceive.

Just my opinion.

LickThoseStamps

Thanks Pete. I am not sure if I see the flow lines that you mention, but I will continue to study the coin. I have ordered a copy of Lange's book!

BlindedByEgo,

I've looked carefully along the edge and don't see any signs of a filled hole or filing. Perhaps, I am not looking for the correct features, but I can say it does not look like the example in the PCGS book. It is not apparent to me why there should be any vertical marks either, for drilling a hole in the side of a coin. I am looking forward to Lange's book and other insights from board members.

I have also emailed the dealer that I intend to return the coin. Hopefully, I won't run into any problems.

tincup

If you are able to do so.... I think I would return the coin. There appears to be indecision on whether or not it has been messed with..... it does look strange to me. And you do appear to be mixed about it also.... so I doubt you will be happy with the coin if you keep it. So better to return it if you can.

gyocomgd

I can't understand how they can fill the hole where the drilling took place so perfectly, but can't smooth or otherwise repair the vertical lines.

Pete, I can't detect lines on the mintmark similar to those on the fields. I just don't see it. That's why I'll never be a surpassing expert on these coins like you, Ed, Hoot and a few others.

Nor do I see any disruption in the field around the mintmark. When I posted the 25-S I promised to show some close-ups of the mintmark. I'll do that yet--I'm awaiting the arrival of a new camera to replace my broken one.

Guy

kranky

Those two marks on the edge are just too suspicious for me. It would be nice if there was a reference that had close-up photos of known MM locations of the 1926-D to see if yours matched up or not.

I also wonder about why the MM is weaker at the top. Thinking about how embossed MMs are created, it would seem logical that if one area was going to be weaker, it would be the part farthest from the rim.

Bottom line, those two marks on the edge would be enough for me to return the coin.

fc

that would be a lot of metal to remove just to push up
a mint mark from inside. i am going to guess it is Altered
though.. those two lines just look wrong wrong wrong
on that coin.