Why do TPGs designate the color on copper coins?

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 8:22AM

Yes, this is a serious question. Pretend you're explaining this to a beginner.

fcloud · February 25, 2006 8:39AM

There is more value in a coin that look like it was just struck versus a coin that has turned brown. The more red the more eye appeal. As copper turns brown it will lose its luster.

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 8:43AM

There is more value in a coin that look like it was just struck versus a coin that has turned brown. The more red the more eye appeal. As copper turns brown it will lose its luster.

True, but that doesn't answer my question.

The guy selling apples on the side of the road doesn't have to tell you which apples are red and which apples are brown, does he? What makes copper coins different than apples?

fcloud · February 25, 2006 8:45AM

<< <i>Why do TPGs designate the color on copper coins? >>

Because thats what colletors want or maybe a gimmic to get more grading fees?

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 8:50AM

Because thats what colletors want or maybe a gimmic to get more grading fees?

Why would collectors pay to be told that a coin is red? For that matter, why would they pay to be told that which of only three possible colors a coin is, when it's obvious from looking at quantities of coins that there are an infinite number of color combinations? It would be like paying someone to tell you if someone is tall, short or medium height. Even if you don't have a ruler, you're better off just looking at the person and getting a sense of his height.

fcloud · February 25, 2006 8:57AM

Some people need to be told by dealers because they can't figure it out on their own. We must be protected from ourselves.

yellowjacket · February 25, 2006 9:07AM

The "color" designations for copper coinage helps to define its grade for posting on price guides. These pricing guides are benchmarks for determinig the value of coins in the market place. Maybe you don't need to be told a coin is red when you see it, but for listing grades and prices, it is added information. Remember when TPG was to be for "sight unseen" trading? This is all part of that philosophy, IMHO.

YJ

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · February 25, 2006 9:28AM

Andy - What answer are you looking for from this idiotic question?Perhaps I pay to be told the color of copper.
Then when the Red coin get a finger print I can ask the TPG service for a refund based on the value of a red coin and not a brown coin.

Stewart

roadrunner · February 25, 2006 9:35AM

This is no different a question to why does a TPG designate "star"
or "FSB" or "FH" or for that matter "MS65" or "MS66". We really don't need their opinion other than to state that it is a real coin with unplayed with surfaces. That's the real value to many considering that the state of art in doctoring continues to expand.

roadrunner

MikeJessie1 · February 25, 2006 9:39AM

Andy, you know when a mercury has full split bands, yet they put that on your slabs. Is it becaues when you collect that series that you become stupid. NO.
This is a desigination, like morgans and Proof Like. FULL STEPS, FULL BELL LINE, ETC ETC. We value our copper RED!!!

red!

Steve · February 25, 2006 10:13AM

This designation wasn't used widely more than twenty years ago but, as we all know, collectors want things more specific now. Saying a Lincoln cent is "choice BU" is not good enough. So we have what we have and I will bet that most collectors like it this way. Steve

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 10:24AM

What answer are you looking for from this idiotic question?

I don't know. Maybe that color blind collectors would be lost without the designations?

Seriously, I don't see why a TPG should need to classify the toning on copper but not on silver.

Stooge · February 25, 2006 1:20PM

<< <i>There is more value in a coin that look like it was just struck versus a coin that has turned brown. The more red the more eye appeal. As copper turns brown it will lose its luster. >>

I think that this is a very valid question. If you don't think so, here is one...why doesn't the TPG's grade coins with toning designation...last time I checked a coin was blast white with no toning when it is struck, so if a Lincoln that has no wear and turns brown and grades MS69BN should in turn be MORE of a value right. Isn't it true that a toned coin brings several times what the same coin in blast white would bring?

Later, Paul.

DMWJR · February 25, 2006 1:55PM

Brown is not toning. That issue has been hammered here a couple of times over the last four years.

Even if the holder says "red" you still need to make sure it is really red!

Bear · February 25, 2006 4:03PM

Some people got to be told

when to go to the bath room.

Steve27 · February 25, 2006 5:17PM

So you can collect on the guarantee.

sinin1 · February 25, 2006 8:01PM

for people who do not know what color it is

they also designate the grade for the people who do not know what grade it is

they also put the coin in plastic, for people who eat ice cream when they look at their coins

MrEureka · February 26, 2006 12:13AM

they also put the coin in plastic, for people who eat ice cream when they look at their coins

jacktheknife · February 28, 2006 12:25AM

I think it is a nice designation to aid collectors and dealers with transactions. I collect only red copper. When browsing an ad or catalogue I can skip over the RB and BN designated coins. I can then look at the RD coins and decide for myself if I like the color or not.

Jack

Stooge · February 28, 2006 4:32PM

<< <i>Some people got to be told

when to go to the bath room. >>

Wiseoldbear, I sure hope that in your 25K + posts you have something more then this to say!

Its just amazing that someone such as yourself would jump in and throw such a stupid comment to someone who asks a serious question. I personally do not own a copper coin, but have thought about a collection, but have no idea about how to keep them from turning.

Later, Paul.

Stooge · February 28, 2006 4:33PM

<< <i>for people who do not know what color it is

they also designate the grade for the people who do not know what grade it is

they also put the coin in plastic, for people who eat ice cream when they look at their coins >>

Here folks is yet another stupid comment!

later, Paul.

morgannut2 · February 28, 2006 5:24PM

It's done I presume to stop wasting time for dealers arguing among themselves and customers over what constitues Full Red verses RB when the coins still has a lot of red. Additionally I guess it helps the sight unseen tranactions which could not occur on Cents otherwise. The other FBL, etc designations are just done to encourage resubmissions, and bigger prices from the Registry progams (commercial promotions).

mercurydimeguy · February 28, 2006 9:18PM

<<Why do TPGs designate the color on copper coins?>>

For the same reason they designate Full Bands, Full Head, DCAM, DMPL, etc.

It is to create scarcity when scarcity doesn't exist.

Barry · February 28, 2006 11:58PM

Brown is not toning.

Of course it is. Toning (aka, tarnish) is any change in color from mint issue. It may not be attractive toning, but it still is toning.

DMWJR · March 1, 2006 12:37AM

Just a couple of examples of Matte Proofs. Copper doesn't just "tone" like silver. The color designation of brown to me doesn't mean toning, but means a change in the state of preservation. Sometimes at PCGS, coins like the 1910 wind up in RB holders. (Note I said "like," because that 1910 would go in a Red holder all day long. Tim Liston has a gorgeous 1916 with "toning" that is in an RB holder for color, which is not brown. I'll e-mail him and see if he can post his picture to this thread.

I wish a chemist or metalurgist would come forward and explain the difference in what happens with copper.

Red Copper with toning: (1910 posted to another thread by Typetone)

Red Brown:

Brown:

rabbitracks · March 1, 2006 2:02AM

<--NOT BROWN but sold as a brown in PCGS 65 Brown. The buyer paid twice what I
paid for my PCGS MS-66 Red 1909 VDB same coin different color. Main reason for resale of
the coin on the open market. The demand brings the VALUE for the right coin.

TimListon · March 1, 2006 2:15AM

Doug is absolutely right. So is rabbitracks. Brown is not toning. This issue has been discussed here a couple times in the past, and is of particular interest to me as you can see from Liston One, one of my two my matte proof cent registry sets. The 1916 proof that Doug refers to is pictured there. I wish I had a picture of the 1915, it is very similar to rabbitracks icon coin, just electric friggin' blue and not brown at all though it sits in a 67BN holder.

A mint state copper coin exhibits “cartwheel” luster when you tilt it back and forth under a pinpoint light source, just like silver and other metals. This is due to the way the metal flows when the coin is struck. In my mind a coin is “toned” if it is not bright red but still exhibits the full luster. A coin is brown if it does not. Doug's pictures depict his “brown is not toning” premise perfectly. In the top picture, you have a coin that will wind up in a RB holder but is fully lustrous. The middle picture is of a coin that will also end up in a RB holder. But because it is not just toned, it is partially “brown”, it surely won't cartwheel. There is no luster at all over much of the coin. The bottom picture is of a coin that properly resides in a BN holder. It is still “mint state” but it is fully brown. Compare the top and bottom photos, or even the top and middle photos, and tell me that “toning” and “brown” are the same thing?

As an aside, matte proof Lincolns don't cartwheel because they are struck twice, and the second strike eliminates the striking qualities that produce the cartwheel. However you can still easily tell the difference between a red cent that is “toned” yet fully lustrous and one that is “red-brown”. Unfortunately, both still wind up in RB holders despite their significant differences.

As you can see from the notes in Liston One, that's why I find the RB issue somewhat misleading. I think most collectors would agree that Doug's “toned” coin is far more desirable than the “red-brown” coin. I would further assert that an attractively “toned” copper coin should enjoy the same status as an attractively toned silver coin, which is to say that it deserves a premium over a red coin. I know few collectors agree with me though (none of whom have seen Liston One). There are a handful that do agree as I have been offered (and turned down) several times “book” for Liston One (mostly because we can't agree what “book” is).

Addressing scarcity, mercurydimeguy makes a point.that I have debated with Doug on occasion. Doug's matte proof Lincoln set (all red) is ranked #2, with 25 red coins that could improve the set in the rankings. My “toned” set is ranked #4 yet there are only 15 red-brown coins that could improve it. I would presume most of the 15 are “toned” coins or they would not grade PR66, but they may not be colorful. Pretty clearly, attractively toned high-grade matte proof Lincolns (especially colorfully toned ones) are scarcer than red matte proof Lincolns of the same numerical grade!

As to Andy's original question, why do TPGs designate a color on copper coins, I would presume that the answer is because (my protests notwithstanding) red copper commands more money than any red-brown copper, even “toned” red-brown. And also because, as some also pointed out, some transactions take place sight-unseen, which I believe is foolhardy given the distinction between “toned” and “brown” copper, and because copper is very reactive and so often copper coins turn in the holder.

Why do TPGs designate the color on copper coins?

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