Question for those in law and law enforcement re: coin doctors

RYK

Is it illegal to alter a coin and try to pass it as unaltered? The reason I ask is that in another thread someone suggested bring in the Feds to investigate. My gut reaction is that they would laugh in our collective faces if their services were requested on these matters. (Plus, hey are probably too busy investigating the restitched Beanie Baby and edge shaving in baseball card claims ).

This is obviously a huge problem that the coin hobby and business faces. From puttying gold coins to thumbing Morgans to frosting proof Kennedys, recoloring classic silver coins, and dipping everything in sight. I tend to think that it is something that must be handled within the coin community, but I may be dead wrong.

What are the laws that pertain to this (if any)?

ER

Isn't passing off an altered coin to deceive, for monetary gain, illegal?

Oh yeah, I'm not a lawyer, nor am I in law enforcement.

kranky

While waiting for someone with actual knowledge to chime in I'll toss in my two cents.

I doubt very much that there is any law against thumbing, ATing, tooling, puttying, etc., in and of itself. There might be a problem if someone tools a coin and claims it's not been tooled (potential fraud).

Someone restores an old car, and sells it. The buyer might think it was original, pays a commensurate price, and later finds out it was restored. If the seller never claimed it was original, what law could have been broken? Same thing with the restitched Beanie Babies.

Either way, the last thing we need is to have bureaucratic involvement here. As much as we hate coin doctors, if there were ever some kind of government oversight of the hobby we'd look back on today as the good old days. Of that I have no doubt.

Longacre

All of my Beanie Babies are certified, so I don't have to worry abou the restitching problem.

For the contracts lawyers there are probably some implied warranties issues, but I am not sure if there are laws against doctoring coins per se. If dipping were a crime, half of the board members here would be in the federal pen.

BlindedByEgo

Probably a civil matter. I know that I want my cops out catching really bad guys.

goose3

If someone were to come to me at work with a doctored coin and wish to pursue some sort of action I would probably recommend that they just seek civil action.

I think you'd be hard pressed to call it criminal but I wouldn't rule it out depending on the monetary amount. It could be fraud but you are not going to get any help unless the amount is significant.

I handled a case where a local person found a deal on a motorcycle that was of course too good to be true. They sent several thousand dollars via wire and it disappeared. I investigated it as far as I could (which isn't far on this internet/out of the country stuff) and called the local FBI office. They pretty much told me to call back if/when I had Several people taken by the same person.

Gemineye

Not being in Law Enforcement I seem to recall not too long ago an individual was forging in house coins for slot machines.
They had even passed in house inspectors. The way he got caught was that he was TOO GREEDY............and produced too much.
I believe he was prosecuted for his work along with his accomplice........

goose3

<< <i>Not being in Law Enforcement I seem to recall not too long ago an individual was forging in house coins for slot machines.
They had even passed in house inspectors. The way he got caught was that he was TOO GREEDY............and produced too much.
I believe he was prosecuted for his work along with his accomplice........ >>




that would be THEFT at the very least and probably some other charge for manufacturing the coinage used in the slot machines.

JRocco

Why bring in law enforcement? Can't we just rely on the well respected and knowledgeable dealers to step up to the plate, police things properly, and actually help the collectors and help our hobby as well at the same time? Oh sorry---they are too busy covering for each other and protecting themselves instead of doing the right thing---Silly me.... I almost forgot---"This one is real-Now move on..."

relayer

I can't even get Rafael Rios arrested and he's a flat-out theif who stole over $15,000 using the US Mail.

goose3

<< <i>I can't even get Rafael Rios arrested and he's a flat-out theif who stole over $15,000 using the US Mail. >>




unfortunately 15K is chump change for the courts to screw around with when it comes to sentencing.

we have a local woman that has been charged with embezzling over 1/2 mil from her employer. I'd be surprised if she spends 1 day in jail.


what's the story with this guy? 15K from you? total?

where is he? in hiding? no charges pending?

PerryHall

We don't need no cops. We got Laura and the Coin Posse!!!

MrEureka

I've had more than a couple of prolific coin doctors explain to me in complete sincerity that their work improves their coins. Their point is not that the coin is going to grade higher or sell for more money - although that is often the case - but that the work actually improved the coin.

Good luck proving that these doctors have an intent to defraud the end user.

sinin1

not a lawyer but my understanding ->

counterfeit -> bad news, feds easily involved

altered date/mm -> potential/probable fraud

altered/tooled/whizzed/artificial colored/misrepresented sale -> ??

Kip

<< <i>not a lawyer but my understanding ->

counterfeit -> bad news, feds easily involved

altered date/mm -> potential/probable fraud

altered/tooled/whizzed/artificial colored/misrepresented sale -> ?? >>



And all I say is... I didnt counterfeit the coin, I didnt alter the date and I had no idea it was whizzed or colored.
Now if you saw me do it or had a video of me doing it..okay. If not..talk to the finger

CTcollector

<< <i>Is it illegal to alter a coin and try to pass it as unaltered? The reason I ask is that in another thread someone suggested bring in the Feds to investigate. My gut reaction is that they would laugh in our collective faces if their services were requested on these matters. (Plus, hey are probably too busy investigating the restitched Beanie Baby and edge shaving in baseball card claims ).

This is obviously a huge problem that the coin hobby and business faces. From puttying gold coins to thumbing Morgans to frosting proof Kennedys, recoloring classic silver coins, and dipping everything in sight. I tend to think that it is something that must be handled within the coin community, but I may be dead wrong.

What are the laws that pertain to this (if any)? >>



Any one out there an expert in "Truth in Advertising" laws and what assurances sellers need to make about their claims (implied, subjective, objective, or otherwise) in marketing products to consumers ?

RYK - I was a litte flippant in my repsonse in the last post that led you to sart this one. Point is there are a good deal of people who I admire, respect, and trust on the sell side of the business and I would not want to have their livelihood negatively impacted by alerting the "feds" or whatever. I'm sure some good apples will be dragged in with the rotten ones if anything was to come of it. Besides no one sent me a PM to join the charge with me - so maybe it wasn't such a good idea. All kidding aside, like others, I would like to see this cleaned up within the industry, but its sadly just not happening.

RYK

CT,

I have a good friend who works as an attorney at the FTC. I will run a hypothetical by her by email over the weekend (no, not the Beanie Baby one ), just for kicks, and report back.

Robert

coynclecter

I work in security for large bank. With the exception of armed or violent crimes, the FBI has already told us not to contact them on matters where our loss is under $250,000.

Do you think they care if someone pays too much for thier toys.

VamGuy

Under the fine tutelage of the current administration, the FBI is currently preoccupied with far more important "national security" issues.

Just as soon as this other incredibly devastating problem is completely erradicated, I'm sure they'll get right on this coin concern of yours.