ELIASBERG coins. Do you have any and do you think they are worth more than a solid comparable grade

saintguru

If so what kind of premium?

tradedollarnut

Exactly 6.35%


I have a couple of his trade dollars [1876-S, 1876-CC]. They aren't worth any more to me because they are Eliasberg. However, I'd pay more for a semi modern type coin [walker, frankie] to get his pedigree.

TahoeDale

Jay,

Yes, and it depends.

Edit: There are several pedigrees that I desire, when I am looking for type. The collector who has the knowledge and experience to have seen thousands of examples, and the sets are infamous--most likely the individual coin will be special.

Bingham(Commems)

Harry Bass(Gold)

Reed Hawn

Norweb

Pittman(Proofs)

Whitney(1796)

The provenance is an added value--how much depends on the passion of the new owner.

coinguy1

In theory, I love the thought of the Eliasberg pedigree, which, in many cases, includes the traced ownership of only one or very few owners since the time the coins were minted.

In the real world, however, sight-unseen, I believe that the odds of the coins being other than liberally graded are fairly slim. Certainly, many wonderful coins were contained in the Eliasberg collection and yes, many of them are accurately graded. But, it is my feeling that PCGS and NGC were each so excited and determined to get those coins in their holders, that they ended up having an unofficial contest to see who could grade them higher.

I base the above opinion on my examination of many of the coins' grades when they were submitted to NGC while I was still a grader there, as well as numerous additional pieces that I have since seen in PCGS holders. Frankly, some of the grading appeared to be silly and embarrassing on the high side.

I also remember having spoken to a couple of very sharp dealers who are eternally optimistic regarding how high their coins might grade. Even they were pleasantly surprised at some of the grading results from their Eliasberg purchases/submissions.

DrPete

I agree with TahoeDale regarding specific coins with pedigrees meaning more to a new owner. I am a collector who loves the history of coins, and particularly when the history of a particular coin is well known. As pointed out above, many of the Eliasberg coins can trace their exact wherabouts from the Clapp family to Mr. Eliasberg, to the auction and the new generation of owner(s). In my mint state set of barber halves I own two coins that were once in the Eliasberg collection, the 01-O in PCGS MS 65 and the 04-O in PCGS MS 66. Both I value highly and a prized coins in my set. It would take an outstanding coin of either date to displace one of these from my set, and looking at the pop reports, there aren't many such extant coins. In the case of both these coins, we know when they were obtained directly from the mint by the Clapp family, when Eliasberg obtained them, and when they were sold at auction. I plan to hold them for some time, perhaps 20-30 years, if possible.

Were/are some of the Eliasberg coins overgraded? I believe some are, but one must remember to buy the coin and not the holder. As CoinGuy indicates, there did seem to be an unofficial contest between NGC and PCGS to get the coins into their holders.

The only other Eliasberg coin I currently own is the 1893 quarter in PCGS PR66 CAM, a beautiful coin that my wife loves, too. I once owned the 1901 proof half in PCGS PR 66, but no longer have it.

To me, any Eliasberg coin calls one to remember the collection of Mr. Eliasberg who built the most compreshensive collecition of US coins ever assembled, and this feat is unlikely to ever be repeated. That is part of numismatic history and tradition and is important to me.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Jay

Certain coins such as my 1807 quarter in a PCGS ms 67 holder has the Eliasberg pedigree and "in my mind" certainly adds addituional value to the coin.The Eliasberg 1796 quarter graded ms 66 Specimen and because of Eliasbergs name on the holder I would state unequivocably it is the most valuable ms 66 quarter and possibly more valuable than the PCGS ms 67 coin.

But wouldn't you rather buy a $20 Saint with the Duckor pedigree instead of Eliasberg ? I know you would buy a Lincoln cent with the Blay pedigree on it rather than Eliasberg.How about the "TradeDollarNut" pedigree rather than the Eliasberg pedigree ?

Stewart

saintguru

Yes Master Stewart....Yes!!

DMWJR

Owning an Eliasberg coin is like owning a page out of the very first red book.

saintguru

That's a crappy analogy.

dbldie55

I have two of them. One was a roll coin that I have seen others sell like it was the "one" in the date-mm slot of his set, and the other is a proof. I do like the fact you can trace ownership back to it being minted in 1899.

coinguy1

<< <i>I have two of them. One was a roll coin that I have seen others sell like it was the "one" in the date-mm slot of his set... >>

Yes, I've seen that type of selling/promotion and never liked it. If I remember correctly, among other multiples, an entire roll (or rolls) of 1883 No Cents Nickels received the "Eliasberg" pedigree. While technically correct, it rubs me the wrong way.

dbldie55

<< <i>

<< <i>I have two of them. One was a roll coin that I have seen others sell like it was the "one" in the date-mm slot of his set... >>

Yes, I've seen that type of selling/promotion and never liked it. If I remember correctly, among other multiples, an entire roll (or rolls) of 1883 No Cents Nickels received the "Eliasberg" pedigree. While technically correct, it rubs me the wrong way. >>



There were 99 total. Lot 772 and 773 were complete rolls (40 coins each) and 774 was 19 coins.

Of course Lot 771 was a proof example of the No Cents coin and the one he would claim was part of the set.

beckwb

Having spoken to someone who has seen both the ms66 Specimen and the ms67 non-specimen, the 1796 qtr in ms67 non-specimen has more characteristics of a specimen than the coin PCGS labels ms66 specimen. (the ms66 specimen is only 95% struck as compared to nearly 100% struck for the ms67 non-specimen). Perhaps someone should some day arrange a direct comparison between both coins so other people can make their judgement. Then we'll know which one should have the $ premium.

jpkinla

My 1920 Saint purchased at the MORSE sale turned out to be an Eiasberg coin!

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Beckwb - The individual you are referring to has been trying to get the PCGS ms 67 (Norman Stack) 1796 quarter into a Specimen holder unsucessfully.I have seen both examples and the Eliasberg SP 66 is hands down a much more attractive coin.The reason it got designated a Specimen is because of the pedigree and how it got into the Eliasberg collection.The ex. Norman Stack coin does not have the same pedigree as the Eliasberg coin.You could confer with Andy Lustig (Mr.Eureka) as he bought the coin out of the Eliasberg sale,did the research and got it designated a Specimen.

ps To say one coin is 95% struck and another coin is ALMOST 100% struck is the reason to determine a Specimen is lame and not believable.

Stewart

roadrunner

I do not currently have any Eliasberg coins. Most of the ones lingering/circulating on the market have problems. I like Mark's analogy, first time I've heard that from a grader who was there at the time. I'd love to own a great Eliasberg coin but until a truly nice one comes my way, I'll wait. Some of this Barbers and Gold coins from 1890's to 1920's were just amazing...plucked right from the mint. Those will always stand out in my mind.

The James Stack, James Pryor, Norweb, are other pedigrees I look for as well. But again, the coin comes first, then the pedigree.
Unfortunately the Pittman sale also suffered from the same fate as Eliasberg in many cases....very inflated grades.

roadrunner

MrEureka

Only my underbidders can say if I paid a premium for my Eliasberg coins. In any event, I certainly would have paid as much for the coins without the provenance.

DMWJR

<< <i>That's a crappy analogy. >>



OK, smart guy...... how about this?

1. If you are asking if an Eliasberg COIN is worth more, it depends on the specialties of the named collector. Eliasberg was just filling holes in some series, and the coins would not fit in a top registry set. If it was a special series to the named collector, then you can assume even before you see the coin that Eliasberg had access to the very best (most of the time), and if he thought it was the best he bought it. Therefore you can presume that it is one of the finest specimens out there, and then let the coin itself tell you.

2. If you are asking if an ELIASBERG coin is worth more, it depends on the value a collector places on the history of a coin, or even the history of coin collecting in general. I have coins from several coins from "world class" collections that are not finest examples, etc., but just because the coins were a part of a famous historical coin collection (I don't have a Binion though). I also have some non-coin numismatic material as well, because I enjoy the history told through coins, as well as the history of collecting.

Is that better Ju-Ju breath?

a039

If two coins (what a big if) are very similar and at the same cost why would you not prefer a coin that has a famous numismatic cache? Take care, Mark

saintguru

I do not eat Ju-Ju B's anymore.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Remember Clapp was the numismatist...............

Eliasberg was the banker

Stewart

MrEureka

Stewart - First, in fairness to Eliasberg, he was certainly an avid collector and numismatist. He just wasn't in the league of the Clapps. But you bring up an important aside, which is that a provenance may consist of multiple owners, each adding something to the mystique of the coin. For example, I would certainly prefer a "Clapp-Eliasberg-Blay" coin in my collection to an otherwise comparable Blay coin.

Lakesammman

I find the Eliasberg coins I have more interesting mainly because of the Clapp connection. Nice, original coins straight from the mint.

rainbowroosie

I own the 1804 Restrike Large Cent -- I absolutely love the coin -- it is 64 RB, but I really believe it is two points undergraded...it is a great coin with an amazing history...I would not sell this coin unless Bill Gates was making the offer!

morgannut2

I've got 10 MS examples but they're all foreign gold. Still I had to overpay maybe 50%--although those from Clapp were in fact extraordinary. On US coins I'm more interested in secondary famous collections because the Eliasberg stuff goes way too high $ compared to other non-pedigreed or minor collector' examples.

slipgate

do an ebay search for "Eiasberg" and see what you get, then compare those prices to published - some are 400% over-priced!

Eliasberg Link

roadrunner

Most of the coins that amazed me were in fact the Clapp coins. So in deference to Andy you can keep the Eliasberg pedigree and give me the Clapp one.

roadrunner

oreville

Only my underbidders can say if I paid a premium for my Eliasberg coins. In any event, I certainly would have paid as much for the coins without the provenance.

Certainly, in one case I was willing to purchase one of MrEureka's winning bids on an Eliasberg Mexican gold peso at a profit to him since I was the underbidder.

Generally, I value Eliasberg pedigreed coins at UP to a premium of 15% or so to the coins without such a pedigree.

Certainly, the Clapp connection is important as well.

oreville

I was indeed crushed when I found out that this Eliasberg pedigreed coin was not formerly owned by Clapp!

majorbigtime

I have a few of "em--paid full retail but like the history.

centmaster

I've spent most of my adult life avoiding the Clapp.

jpkinla

I have only one, the 1920 Saint in MS65 (pop 1) and when I bought it the pedigree was even known......I suppose its cool to have an Eliasberg coin but I wouldn't pay for his name.....The tough part is that many of his coins were "the best" so in that regard one pays for the best.....

DH once said the Eliasberg pedigree is the ONLY important one....

monsterman

juris doctor

>>>Edit: There are several pedigrees that I desire, when I am looking for type. The collector who has the knowledge and experience to have seen thousands of examples, and the sets are infamous--most likely the individual coin will be special.

Bingham(Commems)

Harry Bass(Gold)

Reed Hawn

Norweb

Pittman(Proofs)

Whitney(1796)

The provenance is an added value--how much depends on the passion of the new owner.

>>>>>


i have a few of eli`s coins....but none of the biggies....and i totally agree with andy about the clapp/Eliasberg/blay pedigree as something very special

i will also add the todays collectors are much more informed and educated and to what is " killer " and what is not and great pedigrees are as deep as ever before ( deep in quality through out the entire collection )....thus i would lick my chops at a shot at any of the blay...dukor....tdn...friend...and a few others without even having to see them....as i know these guys personaly and none would even think about " filling a hole "

btw


i have hundreds of bingham pedigreed commems....and they are monsters ....mandatory sunglasses when viewing :-)....thanks for the kudos.....as i am a member of the monster coin fanatical society along with stewart....bruce...dale...steve et all

monsterman

IlikeZARcoins

I have about 25 Eliasberg World Gold coins and I have been able to trace the history of the coins back from myself to whom Eliasberg purchased the coins from ( for most of them ).

By buying Eliasberg gold I found that I buy coins from countries which I otherwise wouldn't buy so it is, in fact, opening my numismatic horizons so to speak.

I like having the Eliasberg Pedigree on my collection and guess what all these coins will be off the market during my lifetime ( touch wood ).

And yes, I don't mind paying a small premium for the name.

pf70collector

I have 15 of the Eliasberg World Coins some with the Clapp provenance.
I know I paid well over premium for this one, but to me it was worth it.
1848 half escudo

dbldie55

There were 2+ rolls of 1883 No Cents in the sale (99 coins total), yet it seems those selling these claim they were the "one" Eliasberg selected for his set (even though he almost always had a Proof for the Philadelphia issue, which was the case with the 1883).

They do sell for a substantial premium over a non-pedigree coin. The one I had was gift graded, although the green holder would have people believe it should be graded higher today.

michael

i could care less about a pedigree the coin stands on its own merits

if it is a great coin that i like and it has a neat pedigree then just an added bonus

but an overgraded and/or ugly, overpriced etc. coin with a pedigree forget it

morgannut2

The Clapp World Gold coins are indeed just special. I bought a 3 coin SA. Peruvian Series that Clapp started, Elaisberg added two, and I've added 5 more dates. The quality has steadly decreased with each owner!!! --

I have one Bass coin out of the 1999 auction, and it's darn nice too (even at a 25% premium)

Obviously any Monsterman toned Commem is worth a big premium too!!