Why Did Heller Stop Collecting Silver and Gold Eagles?

RegistryCoin

Why did I stop collecting silver and gold eagles, but continue to collect the plats?
This question has come up a number of times, so I thought I would now address it.

I became interested in the gold and platinum eagles in 2004. I wanted to collect just pcgs 70 examples, and to put together the finest set, as close to "PCGS Perfect", as possible. I decided to collect only 70s (and 69s where no 70s had been graded) because of "gradeflation" concerns. Obviously a set of 70s is impervious to gradeflation.
I added the silver eagles when the complete eagle collection was introduced, and my goal at that point was to have the finest available complete eagle set, again, PCGS perfect if possible.
I was well on my way to having the finest complete eagle set, when I took a strong comparative look at the pops and mintages of all the eagles. It became very clear to me, first of all, that the silver eagle collection made no sense for me whatsoever, given that the mintages were huge, pops were increasing daily, the haze problem with the ms silver eagles precluded ever getting, or even desiring one of the 70s, and the number of collectors was, and still is mind-bogglingly large, as well as the fact that prices tend to be a bit crazy. My decision to dump those coins was a no-brainer.
My decision to stop collecting gold eagles was a bit more difficult as they are truly beautiful coins with about one tenth the mintages of the silver eagles, and highly sought after in the top grades. I couldn't even part with at least a dozen of the rarer gold eagles, most importantly, the pop one 1999-W $5 unfinished proof die coin, that some would say is the "modern" equivalent of the 1913 Liberty Nickel.
That leaves the plats. I like plats. The plats enjoy miniscule mintages and low pops in 70, with some issues having no 70s yet graded, relatively few collectors, and really cool reverse designs. Plat 70s sell for, as a percentage over base metal price, and as a percentage over the mint issue price, less than the silver eagles, and I believe gold eagles as well! And, plat 70 prices show absolutely no relation to base metal values or fluctuations.
To me, the plat eagle 70s collection is the perfect collection.
The collectors of plats are every bit as competitive and nice as those collectors I have encountered in other series.
I love the design. The Statue of Liberty obverse design is, I think, stunning, and I look forward each year to the new reverse design.
It would be silly for coin doctors to mess with the plats.
And, with the relatively expensive mint-issue price, plats will probably remain rather thinly collected, leaving just a few to "duke it out" for the number one registry spot.
Plats are fun to collect.
At this point in time, I am three coins away from a perfect, 100% 70 proof plat set, but far from a perfect ms set. This is where my competition may have their advantage, but my ultimate goal remains the same for the ms plat set, "PCGS perfect".
I hope readers found this somewhat interesting, and I look forward to the friendly competition we plat collectors have thus far enjoyed.
The Heller Collection of Platinum Eagles

wondercoin

RC: Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the various bullion series coins. You mentioned there were at least a dozen gold coins you could not part with and I understand why. You did make a number of collectors very happy though when you sold the majority of your proof gold collection recently.

I agree that the Platinum Statue of Liberty coins have all the "trappings" of a really cool series to collect. In real estate they talk about "location, location, location". With the moderns, I personally love to talk about "mintage, mintage, mintage". Take last years $100 MS Plat - I believe over 50% of the entire mintage is already in PCGS and NGC holders and the mintage is a scant (roughly) 6,310 coins to begin with! The coins are spread all over the WORLD and there are roughly just 3,000 coins remaining in the world I believe that have yet to see PCGS or NGC. What series of coins since 1900 (since Classic Gold and Silver Commems) can even come close to the scarcity of these Plat coins? The next lowest mintage type coin to the 2004 $50 PR Plat is the 1915(s) $50 Pan Pac Gold!!

Good luck RC with your Platinum collections and you do also have a really special coin in that 1999-W $5 Gold Unfinished Proof Die MS70!

Wondercoin

RegistryCoin

Thank you Mitch. As noted, the gold eagles were the toughest decision I have had to make in all my collecting days, but we can't collect everything we would like. I like your example of real estate. If I could have retained all my past real estate investments, I would be "sitting pretty" to say the very least. Likewise, (ignoring gradeflation) if I could have retained all my past coin collections, I would surely be on top of the world. And yes, the 1999-W $5 Gold Unfinished Proof Die MS70 is truly a keeper, as are some of the other gold eagles I couldn't part with!

tradedollarnut

Obviously a set of 70s is impervious to gradeflation.

RegistryCoin

TDN: I guess my set of 70s may be subject to a certain type of gradeflation, in that, if PCGS loosened its standards and graded a bunch of 70s, then my 70s would be ostensibly comparable to 70s of lesser quality, and at best, my set could then be tied, but as Monsterman points out, my 70s would remain a better quality 70 than the others. Also there may be risks associated with the possible 100 point scale, however, as Monsterman states, at that point, my originally graded 70s would more than likely become 100s, and would stand above other later graded 70s that would probably grade in the high 90s.
Thanks for your "comment". I hope I have answered your "question".

BECOKA

Wow, I remember seeing your set and decided to give up before I even started. By the time I started there were too many issues to catch up. Since Platinum is pretty expensive I will start with the new 24K series. At least it can compete with Platinum because the design should change each year and I love the first design mimicking the buffalo nickel.

DMWJR

<< <i> What series of coins since 1900 (since Classic Gold and Silver Commems) can even come close to the scarcity of these Plat coins? The next lowest mintage type coin to the 2004 $50 PR Plat is the 1915(s) $50 Pan Pac Gold!!
Wondercoin >>



Well, you could try Matte Proofs of any denomination, along with 1936-1940 proofs.

dbldie55

A 70 is the only grade no upside. There are many 69s that could be a 70, but a 70 will never be a 71.

wondercoin

"A 70 is the only grade no upside."

What about P-1?


"Well, you could try Matte Proofs of any denomination, along with 1936-1940 proofs"

Yes - I agree.

Wondercoin

SlangNRox

I was always impressed everytime I saw you complete american eagle set, but I agree with your reasons for concentrating on the platinum.

I also like platinum. Actually my oldest US coin in a slab is from 1997

BaileyBoysplusMom

RC,

I was wondering why you took the "hill top" in the modern gold eagles and then moved on. After reading your post, I feel your investing/collecting decisions are sound. Key dates and low mintages are a fine combination for any collection.

It appears the Plat collector base is growing nicely in the last year. I feel the "reverse proof" early MS 70 Plats in key dates will be highly sought after, especially as the post 2003 Plat MS products will supply many collectors with coins in the next ten years. I suspect, those lucky enough to tuck away a few of those early Plats will be well rewarded.

As the price of Platinum moved significantly over the past year, I expected more raw product from those early year "circulated" Plats to reach PCGS. IMHO it just hasn't happened in the quantity I would have expected and some of those original "bullion" buyers of the coins have doubled and tripled their investment in metal alone. It starts to make me wonder how many of those early coins have already been turned in during previous Plat run-ups and sold back to Bullion dealers who then turned them over to melt (the general Plat metal market has been upside down for nearly 7- 10 years).

I don't feel the same about the Proof Plats yet, even though 5,000+/- coins is few by historic standards, as many are protected in their original packaging from the mint. I have noticed quite a few, as I would expect in the current Plat market, have come to PCGS in the last year compared to previous years and many have made the 70 grade. However, I do feel they are very attractive coins from a collector standpoint and realize their will be key dates in the series and rewards of all kinds to be made. IMHO it will take a much larger collector base to move the Proofs in general as IMHO there will be a bit more supply as compared to those early MS 70 "reverse proof" Plats.

On the golds, even the smallest mintages are way more than the Plats. Additionally, IMHO there are hoards (circulated bullion) out there that can come on the market at any time. For example, a doctor friend of mine, like many of his doctor friends, has $50,000 in gold bullion fresh from the mint sitting in his safe (just in case money bought at some pretty low gold prices) nicely tucked away in original Mint tubes. I'm not sure their are many people with $ xx,xxx tucked away in Plats.

Anyway just my thoughts from a fellow Plat collector.

BBpM

wondercoin

"On the golds, the smallest mintages are way more than the Plats."

BBpM - There are many early MS Gold Eagles that compare favorably to some early MS Plat Eagles. For example, the 1991 $25 Gold has a mintage of roughly 24,100 and is a key coin to the gold series I believe. Compare that to an early Ms Plat coin -say a 1999 $25 Plat (mintage 39,734). The earliest $10 Plat MS coin at 70,250 mintage is exceedingly tough to locate in MS70 - same for say a 1996 $25 Gold Eagle with its mintage of 39,287. So, I do believe there are some very interesting gold eagles out there. But, like some others I know, my read on this is RC got the "platinum fever" - highly addictive and virtually no cure

Wondercoin

BaileyBoysplusMom

Wondercoin,

Point taken, I certainly agree with you on the smaller minority of the gold date MS mintages that are considered "low" in number, and I suppose many of those mintages that you mention will be nice to have for the gold eagle collectors. I feel the Plats (except a few of the early years) have had much lower mintages in general, especially in the ones I like to collect. Again RC collecting the key dates in gold is "smart investing" as far as I'm concerned, as thats where I would put my $$$ if I were collecting modern gold.

IMHO and from my experience, people tend to hoard gold over platinum, so you never know when some of that gold will show up on the market. IMHO another plus for Plats. On the flip side, of course the demand side of the equation for gold counts to absorb any short term supply increase etc.

I don't believe anyone will go "wrong" with key date and low mintage years in Gold or Plat, and they might hit a "home run" or two in the years to come.

BBpM

RegistryCoin

<< <i>RC got the "platinum fever" - highly addictive and virtually no cure >>


This is kinda funny Mitch, because it rings pretty true. Even though I know that fluctuations in plats have little to no effect on the value on the plat 70s, I check plat metal prices quite a few times each day, and have considered stocking up on raw plats in key dates.
I fear you know me a bit too well.

BBpM. I'd like to add, concerning the comparative mintages of the gold and plat, that there are many more gold collectors than plat, which levels the playing field quite a bit when it comes to the higher gold mintages.

BaileyBoysplusMom

"Platinum fever?"

No such thing... lets see, Its Saturday night, I checked the Plat price today back over $1000, e-bay has another pop 11 2003 PR70 Proof Plat on auction.... Mitch has a point on that Gold thing...but thats the yellow metal, besides a platinum card is better than a gold card ...and .....



BBpM

RegistryCoin

You guys make me laugh. It was a fun day!

wondercoin

"IMHO and from my experience, people tend to hoard gold over platinum"


Agreed - but, we are both still trying to figure out where 133,002 1998 $100 Plats went to. Yes, I believe I know where a few tens of thousand went to, but, could there be 100,000 1998 $100 Plat coins stored somewhere as well? Perhaps a very rich doctor.

For those of you not familar with the MS $100 Plat mintages, they are roughly:

1997 - 56,000
1998- 133,002
1999- 56,707
2000- 10,003
2001- 14,070
2002- 11,502
2003- 8,007 !
2004- 7,009 !!
2005- 6,310 !!! Compare 8,891,025 2005 Silver Eagles and 356,555 $50 1 oz 2005 Gold Eagles to this mintage

Wondercoin

BaileyBoysplusMom

Wondercoin,

Perhaps a "very rich" doctor.

Some more interesting numbers and information to ponder on those early year MS $100 Plats:

Year / Mintage / PCGS Graded coins(total)/ Years of grading

1997 / 56,000 / 312/9 years
1998 / 133,002/ 241/8 years
1999 / 56,707/ 115/7 years


Additioinally, from the 2003 year, we see that PCGS graded 10 PCGS MS 70's out of 2,588+/- of the 8,007 coins minted. Take away the "un- opened box" submission and we are at perhaps, 4 coins in 2,000+/- coming to PCGS by way of the regular submissions. So are we talking about a 1 in 500 grade rate for the "reverse proof" design in MS 70? So how many folks want to tie up $500,000 plus grading fees to find an MS 70 in the early years?

All that said if anyone reading this finds a 1997,1999, 2000 , 2001 or 2002 MS 70 for my collection, I'm a buyer. Signing off, Ski week is here.

Always nice to chat Plats with you and RC!

LincolnsRule

<< <i>I decided to collect only 70s (and 69s where no 70s had been graded) because of "gradeflation" concerns. Obviously a set of 70s is impervious to gradeflation. >>



You have it completely backwards. Your ms70s will never go up in grade... but who knows about all those ms69s. If you collect the finest classics or circ strike moderns where ms66/67 may be the top grade, at least if the other coins around you go up in grade, yours will too (provided you collect the finest COINS and not the finest HOLDERS).

RegistryCoin

I do remember something similar to what you have mentioned from my commem. collecting days, but found gradeflation to be problematic, and have not considered collecting anything other than 70s since then. My guess is that a large percentage of all ms and proof coins graded 65-69 have a chance at becoming a less desirable 70 at some point in the future. Thank you though, for your opinion.

BaileyBoysplusMom

Same old story on these Boards.

Some collectors try to acquire the "finest known" specimens in the coins they collect. No matter old or new. In the newer coins of the slab era, more coins will tend to be better preserved than in the pre-slab era and will naturally grade higher. For the Plat Eagles, collecting PCGS 70's helps in the sorting process. With a dedicated dealer and/or collector searching for the "finest known"specimens, they can be obtained and chances are they will always be the "finest known" specimens.

So if you have a "top coin" in your Eagle series in a PCGS 70 slab/ an its confirmed with a dedicated eye(an individual that knows what they are looking at), there is no real significant gradeflation, especially when most of the raw coin has been looked over.

Collecting the best is not an easy task, more the reason many people fail in the endeavor.


BBpM

#1 Registry Set $100 MS Plats

Thats all folks.

RegistryCoin

<< <i>...the reason many people fail... >>

I agree. Collecting the finest coins IN the finest holders is key.

TraderGio

Thanks for the insights.

ellewood

Whatta cool post to read. Sort of makes me want to go out and buy Plats in 2007. Mintages don't get any better (lower) than this! Has anyone ever posted on what the sell prices were for all these years/issues vs. what they are goin' for now? Now THAT I would like to see...

T

RegistryCoin

I wouldn't be able to produce a list like the one you would like to see, Ellewood, but in general, I would guess that plat 70 prices have steadily risen, pretty much across the board, since this thread was started. It is my feeling that we have, and will continue to see the 70 prices increase under the conditions that I believe still exist, such as, lower-to-equal base bullion values, moderately increasing collector base, and increasing pops.
This latter quality of the plats is the one that I would think is the most important to watch: As pops increase, prices still rise (even without increases to the base metal price.)
And given this, we may see increased interest in the creation of collections, or even the outright purchases of complete collections of plats, in the 69 grade, the prices of which seem to me to be attractive as well.

wondercoin

Toby: Following the 2004 Proof Plat set selling from the Mint at $2,495/set and reaching a $8,000-$10,000 level in about 12-15 months since the time the Mint stopped selling it, the 2005 Proof Plat set may have caught more than a few folks by surprise when it basically moved from the same $2,495 issue price to the mid-$4,000's already in just the 6-9 months since the mint stopped selling that product. These figures are simply for PR69DC coins.

A number of "seasoned" collectors have moved into the Proof Plat series in the past year (including building PR70DC sets) as well and, IMHO, prices are, overall, even stronger for the premium coins than when RC wrote this thread.

Wondercoin