Does this look odd to you?
liffeystynx
Posts: 206
Gil Hodges 1970 Topps auto
A bit of history …
Earlier in the week, I spotted this Gil Hodges auto which would sit very nicely in two sets I’m working on & comes from a set I have a sentimental attachment to. I decided to go for it big-time! I contacted the seller, told him I was interested and asked him not to close the auction early without giving me a shot at it. So he knew I was going to bid and bid high. I set my snipe to win – the highest price I’d seen a Gil Hodges auto go for plus $19.69 (geddit?).
But lo and behold, when the auction closed I had been beaten by a guy who had set four separate snipes higher than mine. And then 9 minutes after the auction closed, I get a second-chance offer from the seller. So I have the opportunity to buy the card I want … for every penny of my very high bid.
My question is: is this a common occurrence? Somebody who’s interested enough to set four high snipes deciding as soon as the auction closes that he can’t or won’t buy the card. And a seller blithely turning around and offering the card to the next highest bidder. And all in the space of 9 minutes.
Those with suspicious minds might suspect a set-up to extract every last cent. Anyone got any thoughts or any experience with the individuals involved?
Thanks,
Jonathan
A bit of history …
Earlier in the week, I spotted this Gil Hodges auto which would sit very nicely in two sets I’m working on & comes from a set I have a sentimental attachment to. I decided to go for it big-time! I contacted the seller, told him I was interested and asked him not to close the auction early without giving me a shot at it. So he knew I was going to bid and bid high. I set my snipe to win – the highest price I’d seen a Gil Hodges auto go for plus $19.69 (geddit?).
But lo and behold, when the auction closed I had been beaten by a guy who had set four separate snipes higher than mine. And then 9 minutes after the auction closed, I get a second-chance offer from the seller. So I have the opportunity to buy the card I want … for every penny of my very high bid.
My question is: is this a common occurrence? Somebody who’s interested enough to set four high snipes deciding as soon as the auction closes that he can’t or won’t buy the card. And a seller blithely turning around and offering the card to the next highest bidder. And all in the space of 9 minutes.
Those with suspicious minds might suspect a set-up to extract every last cent. Anyone got any thoughts or any experience with the individuals involved?
Thanks,
Jonathan
Baseball HOF Autographs
Topps Baseball 1967
Mike Payne's 300 Great Cards
MVPs in their MVP years
and T206???
Topps Baseball 1967
Mike Payne's 300 Great Cards
MVPs in their MVP years
and T206???
0
Comments
You only get burned if you actually buy the card...............
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
He shilled you. DONT BUY THE CARD. I'll put you intouch with someone who might have one for you.
gaspipe26
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
I've just e-mailed the seller to say thanks but no thanks. It'll be interesting to see what the card goes for if he relists it, but I've decided that I don't want any part of it.
Gaspipe-Thanks for the kind offer & I'd be delighted to hear about any alternative possibilities (Michael Flaherty tells me you're the man
Jonathan
Topps Baseball 1967
Mike Payne's 300 Great Cards
MVPs in their MVP years
and T206???
I see no signs of any shilling.
you're assuming it's a shill. Maybe he immediately emailed the guy and gave him some lame excuse??
maybe it is a shill but a new one or a buddy of his that he asked to hit it because he wasn't happy with the price.
The 2 don't seem to have any prior history based on the bidder's past activity. If there was some other activity I'd be more inclined to think it was possible.
<< <i>liff,
He shilled you. >>
there is absolutely ZERO evidence of a shill..
the high bidder & seller are in 2 different states..
ebay's "2nd chance offer" option only allows the item to be offered at the 2nd bidders highest bid, not lower..
the thing to look out for is fake "2nd chance offers".. scammers (not the seller) usually send out these lookalike "2nd chance offers", so dont ever accept a 2nd chance offer unless it is listed in your "My eBay" page under "My Messages"..
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>My question is, why would you lay down 4 snipes for the same auction, for differing ammounts, at the last moment? What's the point? Flood the server to keep other snipes off? >>
that is odd, might be a software or server issue.
what evidence do you have of shilling?
<< <i>Oh I forgot , if pandrews says it isnt it must not be. >>
your above statement is correct in this case, i stated that there is ZERO evidence of shilling, and that is a fact..
You're right for being suspicious of what happened. This is a classic example of two people getting together to jack up the price of an auction. So the buyer and seller are from different states? and that's suppose to make it impossible to rig an auction? Pfftt..gimme a break.
I wouldn't have been as suspicious if the seller contacted you a week later to offer the 2nd chance buy, but this guy got TOO GREEDY. He couldn't wait to get his hooks into you. I have no doubt he'll relist the item and this time, try to shill you again, but more tactfully. He knows your limit and will undoubtedly have another person bid up to what you're willing to pay.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>The fact that you posted this thread asking for input from the community tells us you believe something weird is going on. TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS!
You're right for being suspicious of what happened. This is a classic example of two people getting together to jack up the price of an auction. So the buyer and seller are from different states? and that's suppose to make it impossible to rig an auction? Pfftt..gimme a break.
>>
pfffft my ass.. i never said it made it "impossible to rig an auction".. my statement is still 100% correct, there is ZERO evidence of a shill.. that doesnt mean it isnt a shill, but it means IT CANNOT BE PROVED..
simple solution, dont take the 2nd chance offer.. more than likely, it's not even legit or even from the seller..
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
<< <i>
<< <i>The fact that you posted this thread asking for input from the community tells us you believe something weird is going on. TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS!
You're right for being suspicious of what happened. This is a classic example of two people getting together to jack up the price of an auction. So the buyer and seller are from different states? and that's suppose to make it impossible to rig an auction? Pfftt..gimme a break.
>>
pfffft my ass.. i never said it made it "impossible to rig an auction".. my statement is still 100% correct, there is ZERO evidence of a shill.. that doesnt mean it isnt a shill, but it means IT CANNOT BE PROVED..
simple solution, dont take the 2nd chance offer.. more than likely, it's not even legit or even from the seller.. >>
Your statement that "there is ZERO evidence of a shill" is absolutely irrelevant here and you know it.
It's impossible for us to prove actual shilling unless we had access to IP addresses, wiretap or eavesdrop on the conversations between the high bidder and seller. All we can do is use common sense and put 2 and 2 together.
The person who started the thread isn't even asking for evidence of shilling. He's asking if the whole thing smells rotten, and YOU KNOW it does. If you were the underbidder, you'd have to be a moron to pay what the seller is asking for in the 2nd chance offer.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>It's impossible for us to prove actual shilling unless we had access to IP addresses, wiretap or eavesdrop on the conversations between the high bidder and seller. All we can do is use common sense and put 2 and 2 together.
The person who started the thread isn't even asking for evidence of shilling. He's asking if the whole thing smells rotten, and YOU KNOW it does. If you were the underbidder, you'd have to be a moron to pay what the seller is asking for in the 2nd chance offer. >>
so basically what you're saying, is that everything i've posted in this thread has been correct..
<< <i>
<< <i>It's impossible for us to prove actual shilling unless we had access to IP addresses, wiretap or eavesdrop on the conversations between the high bidder and seller. All we can do is use common sense and put 2 and 2 together.
The person who started the thread isn't even asking for evidence of shilling. He's asking if the whole thing smells rotten, and YOU KNOW it does. If you were the underbidder, you'd have to be a moron to pay what the seller is asking for in the 2nd chance offer. >>
so basically what you're saying, is that everything i've posted in this thread has been correct.. >>
Basically, what I'm saying is, you've missed the entire point of the thread. Congratulations.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>Basically, what I'm saying is, you've missed the entire point of the thread. Congratulations. >>
no, getting the point, and addressing the point are two different things.. i chose to not address the point, since there were already plenty of "dont buy it" posts, it would only be repeating what others said..
the point i addressed is the undisputable fact that there is NO hard evidence of shilling..
<< <i>
<< <i>Basically, what I'm saying is, you've missed the entire point of the thread. Congratulations. >>
no, getting the point, and addressing the point are two different things.. i chose to not address the point, since there were already plenty of "dont buy it" posts, it would only be repeating what others said..
the point i addressed is the undisputable fact that there is NO hard evidence of shilling.. >>
So what exactly was your point again? That he should go ahead and agree to complete the purchase with the 2nd chance offer?
Yeah. That's what I thought.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
If he lists it again and you want to do business with him I would only place a bid by snipe and wouldnt tell him your interested
<< <i>So what exactly was your point again? That he should go ahead and agree to complete the purchase with the 2nd chance offer?
Yeah. That's what I thought.
you're not too bright, are you? my statements have been extremely clear and direct, whereas yours are all assumptions..
the only advice i've given has been not to complete the purchase, regardless of your imagination telling you ive said otherwise..
the point i made was very clear, there is ZERO concrete evidence of a shill..
<< <i>
<< <i>So what exactly was your point again? That he should go ahead and agree to complete the purchase with the 2nd chance offer?
Yeah. That's what I thought.
you're not too bright, are you? my statements have been extremely clear and direct, whereas yours are all assumptions..
the only advice i've given has been not to complete the purchase, regardless of your imagination telling you ive said otherwise..
the point i made was very clear, there is ZERO concrete evidence of a shill.. >>
Thank you for proving once and for all, your idiotic argument was moot all along.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>
Thank you for proving once and for all, your idiotic argument was moot all along.
>>
ummm, sure.. 100% factual statements are "moot"..
<< <i>
<< <i>
Thank you for proving once and for all, your idiotic argument was moot all along.
>>
ummm, sure.. 100% factual statements are "moot"..
Damn right it's moot. So we don't have access to the IP addresses of the underbidder and seller. And like I said, since we can't access their e-mails, conversations or phone records, we don't have proof that it's actual shilling.
Does it really matter?!?!
Obviously it doesn't because you yourself said you wouldn't go through with the 2nd chance offer because the whole thing smelled rotten.
So yeah, your point is so utterly inconsequential, it's not worth discussing.
What cracks me up is how you keep patting yourself on the back with this "AHA! you see! there is no proof of schilling - I'm right!!" argument like you found the cure for cancer.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>What cracks me up is how you keep patting yourself on the back with this "AHA! you see! there is no proof of schilling - I'm right!!" argument like you found the cure for cancer. >>
what cracks me up is that you keep insinuating that ive said anything other than what ive actually said..
just admit the facts, you were wrong in calling me out, and you've been wrong in all your insinuations about my statements thus far..
as for relevant posts, is this thread about possible shilling? if so, then my posts in this thread are very relevant.. all of yours are assumptions..
Your answer will probably be along the lines of "hell no I won't buy the card. The whole thing just doesn't smell right, I know a setup when I see it, etc..."
would that be an assumption then?
Now do you see why I say your point about "no proof of shilling" is irrelevant? If there WAS proof of shilling, the final actions by ANYONE on this board would be the same; run as fast as you can away from the seller.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>If there's no proof of shilling - I'm asking you point blank now - than why not accept the 2nd chance offer? >>
i dont yet believe the 2nd chance offer even came from the seller, but i could be wrong.. as i stated earlier, it's a common occurence when you are underbidder on $500+ items, to receive scam or "spoof" emails that are designed to appear as legit 2nd chance offers.. EVERY time ive ever been outbid on a high dollar item, i've received these scam emails..
i believe what liffeystynx received was one of these emails also..
<< <i>Your answer will probably be along the lines of "hell no I won't buy the card. The whole thing just doesn't smell right, I know a setup when I see it, etc..." >>
why the hell would i say that? when ive already said there is zero evidence of a shill? why are you trying to create things for me to say now?
<< <i>would that be an assumption then? >>
no, an assumption is you assuming what my answer would be and even including a created statement which you "assumed" i would make..
Please list your "Proof" for us that this was a shill.
<< <i>
<< <i>If there's no proof of shilling - I'm asking you point blank now - than why not accept the 2nd chance offer? >>
i dont yet believe the 2nd chance offer even came from the seller, but i could be wrong.. as i stated earlier, it's a common occurence when you are underbidder on $500+ items, to receive scam or "spoof" emails that are designed to appear as legit 2nd chance offers.. EVERY time ive ever been outbid on a high dollar item, i've received these scam emails..
i believe what liffeystynx received was one of these emails also..
<< <i>Your answer will probably be along the lines of "hell no I won't buy the card. The whole thing just doesn't smell right, I know a setup when I see it, etc..." >>
why the hell would i say that? when ive already said there is zero evidence of a shill? why are you trying to create things for me to say now?
<< <i>would that be an assumption then? >>
no, an assumption is you assuming what my answer would be and even including a created statement which you "assumed" i would make..
Liffeystynx said nothing about receiving a scam e-mail. He said:
"But lo and behold, when the auction closed I had been beaten by a guy who had set four separate snipes higher than mine. And then 9 minutes after the auction closed, I get a second-chance offer from the seller. So I have the opportunity to buy the card I want … for every penny of my very high bid."
Here's what it boils down to.
Liffey showed his hand to the seller (ie, I'll pay A LOT for this card). Liffey bids big and stillloses auction. Then, within NINE minutes after the auction closes, the high bidder has contacted and worked out an arrangement to nullify the auction and the seller sends out a 2nd chance offer.
EVERYBODY and their grandmother is telling Liffey to be careful and avoid the 2nd chance offer because it's rotten. I have yet to see anyone tell him the deal looks kosher and that he should follow through on the offer.
Than you say, "there's no proof of shilling," which means, "there's no proof of the unprovable at this point."
Of course we can't prove shilling! Even if we see the underbidder does nothing but bid exclusively on the seller's auctions, it's STILL not proof of shilling. It's looks damning, but is it proof? Proof is ip addresses of the seller and bidder being one and the same. Proof is the bidder and seller being registered under the same name.
Proof of shilling is something we'll NEVER get on the boards unless the shillers actually register on the boards and confess to us.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
both of you are right
the 2nd chance offer looks rotten, and their is no proof of shilling.
what is the problem??
Steve
Dont waste your time, you have stated the point much better than I every could. pandrews just likes to argue. Everyone here knows its fishy. In my opinion, and yes pandrews its MY opinion, it is a shill that backfired. ITS MY OPINION. No matter what you say.
<< <i>Proof is ip addresses of the seller and bidder being one and the same. Proof is the bidder and seller being registered under the same name. >>
absolutely you are incorrect again, and you're even contradicting your earlier statement.. shilling can still take place, even with 2 different IP addresses, so no, that is not proof..
<< <i>Here's what it boils down to. >>
no, here's what it boils down to: you should never have called me out, and damn sure dont try to prove me wrong, when i've made no wrong statements..
i used to like most of your posts, DBH, even though most are meaningless and inconsequential (to use your own words)..
<< <i>pandrews just likes to argue >>
gaspipe, you just like be fat.. (of course, thats just my opinion - actually, no it's fact)..
<< <i>
<< <i>Proof is ip addresses of the seller and bidder being one and the same. Proof is the bidder and seller being registered under the same name. >>
absolutely you are incorrect again, and you're even contradicting your earlier statement.. shilling can still take place, even with 2 different IP addresses, so no, that is not proof..
<< <i>Here's what it boils down to. >>
no, here's what it boils down to: you should never have called me out, and damn sure dont try to prove me wrong, when i've made no wrong statements..
i used to like most of your posts, DBH, even though most are meaningless and inconsequential (to use your own words)..
<< <i>pandrews just likes to argue >>
gaspipe, you just like be fat.. (of course, thats just my opinion - actually, no it's fact)..
Believe me, if I call you out, you'll know it!
You're correct. Shilling can take place even when there are two IP addresses. But how how can we prove shilling in the first place? Unless you work for Ebay or have access to the bidder/seller's e-mail, recordings of phone and personal communication, I'm going to say you'll never EVER find proof of shilling.
Anyway, like winpitcher said, it's all semantics. Can we agree that it would be crazy to follow through on the 2nd chance offer, even if it was legit?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>BIG,
Dont waste your time, you have stated the point much better than I every could. pandrews just likes to argue. Everyone here knows its fishy. In my opinion, and yes pandrews its MY opinion, it is a shill that backfired. ITS MY OPINION. No matter what you say. >>
I don't know why some of you think that Pandrews is full of crap (he might be for all I know).....but there is ZERO proof that this was a shill.
No we cannot prove shills here on this board but when you search a bidder/sellers history on ebay and see evidence that looks as though the one is shilling...........you turn them in and let Ebay nuke them.
There are 3 possibilities on this 2nd chance offer.
1. It was genuine/true because the seller either has 2 of these cards or the high bidder immediately had bidders remorse or tried to renegotiate postage, shipping, or even price immediately upon close of listing.
2. It was a shill, but the bidder had not bid on any of the seller's listings in the past 30 days (easily learned by searching ebay)
3. It was a bogus second chance offer by some crapbag phishing for some easy money.
My money is on #3 or #1 being the real story here with this listing based upon looking into the bidder's history.
i included extremely large scans, as i always do.. the card was clearly described as "NEAR MINT" due to slight chipping on the back edges (it's a black-bordered card)..
immediately after the auction ended, the winning bidder contacted me and said he apologized, but he misread the description and thought the card was MINT.. he told me he didnt want the card asked me to offer it to the 2nd highest bidder.. he paid me $4 through paypal to cover the listing and final value fees, so i let him out of the deal..
i did NOT offer it to the 2nd highest bidder, because of baseless accusations like the ones made by gaspipe and dabighurt.. i relisted the card and it ended up selling for $20.. doesnt matter to me, i dont know how long ive had the card, dont know where i got it or how much i paid for it, big deal..
<< <i>also, as an example, right before the superbowl, i sold a raw 1993 pinnacle rookies jerome bettis for $60+..
i included extremely large scans, as i always do.. the card was clearly described as "NEAR MINT" due to slight chipping on the back edges (it's a black-bordered card)..
immediately after the auction ended, the winning bidder contacted me and said he apologized, but he misread the description and thought the card was MINT.. he told me he didnt want the card asked me to offer it to the 2nd highest bidder.. he paid me $4 through paypal to cover the listing and final value fees, so i let him out of the deal..
i did NOT offer it to the 2nd highest bidder, because of baseless accusations like the ones made by gaspipe and dabighurt.. i relisted the card and it ended up selling for $20.. doesnt matter to me, i dont know how long ive had the card, dont know where i got it or how much i paid for it, big deal.. >>
Wow, that story sure cleared things up. Hey Liffey, go right ahead and accept the 2nd chance offer from the seller! PA andrews said it's okay!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Heres the address
7961 Queenair Dr
Your a loudmouth jerk. Come on by.
Yeah I'm heavy, 310lbs 6'5" , Im an old guy too.
<< <i>Wow, that story sure cleared things up. Hey Liffey, go right ahead and accept the 2nd chance offer from the seller! PA andrews said it's okay! >>
are you completely stupid? or are you axtel?
<< <i>Gaithersburg, MD, anytime pandrews.
Heres the address
7961 Queenair Dr
Your a loudmouth jerk. Come on by. >>
dude you are the toughest keyboard warrior i think ive ever heard of.. you are TOUGH! i would never mess with you! your keyboard can kick my keyboards ass!
actually, you're an OLD, FAT, SLOB that looks like your just barely ambulatory because of your obesity...
and now you put your address on a public message board!
<< <i>
<< <i>Gaithersburg, MD, anytime pandrews.
Heres the address
7961 Queenair Dr
Your a loudmouth jerk. Come on by. >>
dude you are the toughest keyboard warrior i think ive ever heard of.. you are TOUGH! i would never mess with you! your keyboard can kick my keyboards ass!
actually, you're an OLD, FAT, SLOB that looks like your just barely ambulatory because of your obesity...
and now you put your address on a public message board!
heh, this coming from the guy who said TWICE, "THATS WHAT YOU GET FOR CALLING ME OUT!!!!"
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>heh, this coming from the guy who said TWICE, "THATS WHAT YOU GET FOR CALLING ME OUT!!!!"
>>
what the hell does that mean?
ive already explained all scenarios for you in plain english, and all my scenarios pertained to this thread.. you are obviously extremely closed minded and ignorant about ebay..
<< <i>
<< <i>heh, this coming from the guy who said TWICE, "THATS WHAT YOU GET FOR CALLING ME OUT!!!!"
>>
what the hell does that mean?
>>
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>
now what the hell does that mean? i know you told me to "get over myself" and then edited it out to add a bunch of "ROFL" icons, so possibly you should get over yourself?
i understand that you just want the last word but cant think of anything intelligent, so you just respond with the handy "ROFL" icons..