5 Reasons You Can't Blame Bill Buckner...
Axtell
Posts: 10,037 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
...for losing the 1986 World Series (from the biggest disappointment thread). These were the reasons ESPN chose:
* 5. Roger Clemens left the game after seven innings. Clemens has insisted he did not leave the game willingly, and most observers of his career believe him.
* 4. Calvin Schiraldi's pitching put the Mets in a position to tie and win the game, and the game was already tied at the time of the error. Had Buckner made the play, the game would have moved to an eleventh inning.
* 3. Pitcher Bob Stanley and catcher Rich Gedman miscommunicated on the wild pitch that tied the game.
* 2. Batter Mookie Wilson would have beaten Buckner to first base even if the ball had been properly played.
* 1. Manager John McNamara. He took Clemens out against his will; he pinch-hit Clemens not with veteran slugger Don Baylor, but with rookie Mike Greenwell, who struck out on three pitches; he refused to replace Buckner for defensive purposes as he had done all postseason; he brought in Schiraldi to start the inning instead of Stanley.
The show also featured a "Best of the Rest" which focused on, among other things, Red Sox pitcher Dennis Boyd's premature celebration. Did the "Oil Can" jinx his team by opening a bottle of champagne in the clubhouse after the second out of the tenth inning? Also, after that same second out, the scoreboard at Shea Stadium briefly displayed the message, "Congratulations, 1986 World Champion Red Sox."
* 5. Roger Clemens left the game after seven innings. Clemens has insisted he did not leave the game willingly, and most observers of his career believe him.
* 4. Calvin Schiraldi's pitching put the Mets in a position to tie and win the game, and the game was already tied at the time of the error. Had Buckner made the play, the game would have moved to an eleventh inning.
* 3. Pitcher Bob Stanley and catcher Rich Gedman miscommunicated on the wild pitch that tied the game.
* 2. Batter Mookie Wilson would have beaten Buckner to first base even if the ball had been properly played.
* 1. Manager John McNamara. He took Clemens out against his will; he pinch-hit Clemens not with veteran slugger Don Baylor, but with rookie Mike Greenwell, who struck out on three pitches; he refused to replace Buckner for defensive purposes as he had done all postseason; he brought in Schiraldi to start the inning instead of Stanley.
The show also featured a "Best of the Rest" which focused on, among other things, Red Sox pitcher Dennis Boyd's premature celebration. Did the "Oil Can" jinx his team by opening a bottle of champagne in the clubhouse after the second out of the tenth inning? Also, after that same second out, the scoreboard at Shea Stadium briefly displayed the message, "Congratulations, 1986 World Champion Red Sox."
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Comments
he can't be blamed for all 7 games only that one
Reason 6 : I was at that game and there was no way in he!! my team was letting me down that night
I blame Calvin Schrialdi first, and Bob Stanley second, and have maintained this view ever since I watched that tragedy unfold in 1986. Bill Buckner is probably sixth or seventh on the list of those to blame.
What is sad, is that Buckner actually LIKED living in Boston and planned to settle there. However, certain idiot baseball "fans" in the area taunted him constantly, and literally drove him out of town (he lives in Idaho, last I heard).
However, I guess Buckner fared better than Donnie Moore, who ultlimately killed himself for giving up the home run to Dave Henderson.
<< <i>if you're a veteran PRO BASEBALL PLAYER playing in the frigging WORLD SERIES and you let a ball roll between your legs, IT'S YOUR FAULT! >>
So the Sox losing the series was solely and completely his fault?
Did you even watch the series? Or is your knowledge of this series based only on watching that one play?
I'm willing to bet it's the latter.
<< <i>So the Sox losing the series was solely and completely his fault? >>
dumbass, where did i say the whole series was his fault? nice spin..
you're previous statement was:
<< <i>you'd know (a) that error wasn't his fault >>
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I find it hard to believe that Mookie Wilson would have beat out a grounder that was hit right at the first baseman almost directly behind the base. Let's face it, if the guy was that much of a cripple, he certainly wouldn't have been playing there in the first place, but considering he played the position for over 1000 regular season innings, and then started all 7 games in the series at 1st, it would be assumed that he was able to perform even the most basic duties expected of a first baseman. If he fielded it cleanly, Wilson was not even 2/3 the way down the baseline, Buckner could have jogged to the base.
And it's not like Dave Stapleton was exactly the greatest option for a defensive replacement, especially considering he had a grand total of 7 balls hit at him while playing the position during the regular season.
even that play where the catcher (Owens) had a passed ball and the Yanks? went on to win the series. The dodgers had plenty of other opportunities to win. Pro players NEVER blame another player for losing a game or series.
now an ump that is another thing.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>So the Sox losing the series was solely and completely his fault? >>
dumbass, where did i say the whole series was his fault? nice spin..
you're previous statement was:
<< <i>you'd know (a) that error wasn't his fault >>
>>
Talk about spinning, why don't you put the ENTIRE statement into play, instead of what you want it to say?
<< <i>Bill Buckner is still a freakin loser for not fielding that ball, I dont care what you say, if he made that play the game would have been won. >>
Yes, but to pin the entire series on his shoulders is ignorant at best.
McNamara had three opportunities to get Buckner's sorry bat out of the lineup in game six. He could have started Baylor against Ojeda, he could have pinch hit Baylor with the bases loaded against Orosco in the eighth, and the one most people forget happened in the top of the tenth. After, Buckner was hit by the pitch, Stapleton could have pinch ran for Buckner and stayed in the game for defense. Watching Buckner pop up the first pitch feebly against Orosco in the eighth was sickening.
I never blamed his error for the series loss but his bat is another story, especially since he kept Baylor out of the games in Shea and virtually eliminated Rice's bat from the series. Look at the OBP's of the people who hit ahead of Buckner for the series - Owen .423, Boggs .371, Barrett .514.
Throw in the fact he was playing on a gimpy ankle and could barely walk he had no business being in the lineup in the first place.
You're such an idiot that it isn't even funny anymore.
Take a look at Pandrews post again you chimp and read it. Don't just write what you want.
He writes and I quote:
<< <i>Bill Buckner is still a freakin loser for not fielding that ball, I dont care what you say, if he made that play the game would have been won. >>
He didn't write SERIES he wrote GAME.
GAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAMEGAME
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SERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIESSERIES
you clown, by placing the blame of that GAME on Buckner, you are placing the blame of the SERIES on Buckner, too you clown.
You cannot cannot cannot cannot cannot place the blame on buckner for losing the GAME OR THE SERIES, you idiot, as the 5 reasons counted above obviously show he wasn't the reason.
nowhere will you find that ive said Buckner cost the series, or game.. what i did insinuate, is that Axtell is a dumbass if he thinks that error wasn't buckner's fault..
axtell, are you going to tell me that it wasnt cheney's fault for shooting that poor old dude, now? heh..
<< <i>you clown, by placing the blame of that GAME on Buckner, you are placing the blame of the SERIES on Buckner, too you clown. >>
You get dumber with every post. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Bosox up 3-0 going into the bottom of the 6th of Game 7?
I guess that is Buckner's fault too.
The simple fact is that any team with Calvin Schiraldi on the mound during crunch time would not have won anything.
5. Clemens was at 149 pitches for the game and was removed in part because a blister on his pitching hand had popped when he threw the slider. He was throwing all fastballs by this point. Whether or not he asked out, as Moron McNamara claimed, or McNamara removed him due to his pitch count and blister - only they know the truth.
4. Had Buckner made the play, the game would have moved to the eleventh inning where the Sox had Evans, Gedman and Henderson due up against a Mets pitching staff that was down to Doug Sisk. The Red Sox on the other hand had Bob Stanley and his 0.00 series e.r.a on the mound against a Met lineup that had Johnson, Mazzili and Steroid due up.
3. Agreed.
2. Buckner led firstbaseman in assists because he never took plays unassisted - the debate is whether or not Bob Stanley would have beat Wilson to the bag. Stanley insists he would have been there. Buckner, ever eager to assess blame, said Stanley would not. Regardless, the run would not have scored on that play had Buckner fielded the ball cleanly.
1. McNamara was a dolt at times, but the main reason was his loyalty and blind faith in Buckner's pathetic series bat.
Edited to add: I think part of the reason Buckner got so much abuse is because he was a stiff all series and before the error most people thought he should not have been in the lineup anyway. Had say, Marty Barrett, made the error that cost the winning run the sentiment from the people would have been totally different.
I stated:
<< <i>(a) that error wasn't his fault (he shouldn't have been out there anyways), >>
You'd see that I believe that Buckner shouldn't have been playing, and has been pointed out, could easily have been pinch hit for and a much more suitable batter (and first baseman) be in play at that cruical time.
Why don't you 2 dorks go back and actually WATCH the game, instead of relying on second, third, and who knows how many more hand accounts for your information, and quit watching highlights of the game that ignore what actually happened and influenced the outcome.
Then you'd know what you're talking about, and you wouldn't be putting either the GAME or the SERIES' blame on Buckner's shoulders.
<< <i>My last reply to the 2 queens jrmac and pandrews: >>
<< <i>I stated:
(a) that error wasn't his fault (he shouldn't have been out there anyways),
>>
and it wasnt cheney's fault he shot that guy, right?
at that point in time, bill buckner, a seasoned professional, was ONE-ON-ONE with a baseball, and it went through his legs.. as a pro, you cant let that happen, and if it does, it's your responsibility.. you cant shift the blame for that particular play anywhere else.. "shouldnt have been out there" is not an excuse.. as i said, he was a pro, and any pro ballplayer would probably be GLAD to be on the field during a world series..
Andy
(Sox fan since '66)
<< <i>Bill Buckner is still a freakin loser for not fielding that ball, I dont care what you say, if he made that play the game would have been won. I dont believe that the series loss was all his to blame though, McNamara was a complete idiot for allowing him be in the game at that point. >>
What makes you so sure they would have won? The game was tied at that point, and Mookie may have reached base. The real goat was that choker Schiraldi -- I hope he sends Buckner a nice Christmas gift every year.
<< <i>
Drama queens, you dope.
<< <i>If he couldn't bend over...
Andy
(Sox fan since '66) >>
"insert ANOTHER brokeback mountain comment here"
<< <i>Sure, there are many other situations, that if better executed, would have not resulted in the Series coming down to this one play. This always happens in sports. Bottom line though, if Buckner fielded the ball - end of story. Game over - Sox win. He blew it. >>
No, the game was freakin' TIED at that point!!
Anyone Sox fan who actually watched the game when it happened wanted to kill Schiraldi, Stanley, and McNamara, in that order.
Much like Cubs shortstop Gonzalez' misplay in the Bartman inning, the "second gunman" has as much culpability as the historic goat.
BTW, That 149 pitch count for Clemens is a salient point (and one I did not know).
My roommate threw the tv right through the dorm window after Buckner's play (UMass Amherst), and some rioting ensued on campus (that made Newsweek). Good times.
Bosox1976
In 1984 Leon Durham was given the starting 1st baseman job for the Chicago Cubs right out of spring training beating out Bill Buckner. who would only play in 21 games that year for the Cubs. As you may or may not know the Cubs dominated that year but we beat in the playoffs by the Padres. One of the key plays in the game was a ground ball that went right through Leon Durhams legs. As fate would have it there was a quote in the paper from a still bitter Bill Buckner basically stating if he was playing at 1st base that ball would have never gotten by him!!
I worked for the Cubs for 7 years and saw my world series ring go right between Durhams legs that year. I was also sitting in the clubhouse the next year as I watched the ball go through Buckner's legs and had mixed feelings. I hated Bill Buckner because he was the most egotistical player I had ever met but I hated the ARROGANT Mets even more!!
Give Buckner Some Peace:
Bill Buckner has suffered more for the 1986 Red Sox loss than anyone else involved.
Editor's note: This column appears in the Oct. 14 issue of ESPN The Magazine.
When Bill Buckner and Mookie Wilson started signing baseball items together, I nearly threw up in my mouth. Buckner and Mookie doing the Ralph Branca-Bobby Thomson routine? How could Buckner profit from the most famous gaffe in World Series history, a blunder that shattered a region and defined a star-crossed franchise? As a reader asked, shouldn't the Son of Sam law apply here?
I mentioned this heinous development in a previous column, excoriating Buckner while fantasizing about breaking one of those autographed photos over his head. Eventually, I forgot about it. But then October rolled around, and with it, another anniversary of the Clip That Won't Die: Mookie grounds to first, a creaky Buckner hobbles over, moving like a guy hopping off the crapper to answer the phone, reaches down in sections ... but not far enough. The error is now part of October, like New England foliage, Columbus Day or Michael Myers.
Enduring that clip for the umpteenth time this month, it finally dawned on me: Buckner has suffered more since that moment than everyone else involved combined. Red Sox fans won't let him forget; no one does. His is a scarlet E. Buckner moved his family to Idaho a few years ago. Think that's because he likes potatoes? He was running away. You can't blame him.
Allsport
Boston's then-manager John McNamara should have known better than to send Buckner out to first in the 10th.
Everyone has forgotten about Buckner's career: 22 seasons, 2,700-plus hits, .289 average, a batting title. Or how in 1986, he gutted out 153 games on ravaged ankles, knocking in 102 runs on countless clutch hits. Or how three outs from extinction in Anaheim, he started the ninth more intense than Travis Bickle, repeatedly stepping out of the box to rattle Angels starter Mike Witt. When Witt complained, Buckner unleashed a stream of obscenities-and a single to center. That was Billy Buck: heart on his sleeve, charcoal under his eyes, tobacco bursting from his cheek and always looking for an edge. When Dave Henderson belted a series-saving home run later that inning, Buckner was first out of the dugout, wrapping Hendu in a joyous bear hug. I can still see it.
Today, it's assumed Billy Buck squandered the '86 Series himself. Only one problem: He didn't. Sure, a hobbled Buckner was running on fumes by the time the Series rolled around, wearing high-tops to support ankles more wobbly than a Danny Wuerffel spiral and giving way in late innings to a defensive replacement. But in Game 6, Buckner didn't send himself out in the 10th; that was manager John McNamara's decision. And Buckner didn't allow three two-out singles; that was doe-eyed closer Calvin Schiraldi. Buckner didn't unfurl a game-tying wild pitch to Wilson; that was Bob Stanley. And Buckner wasn't the one who couldn't block the pitch; that was Rich Gedman. Only after 16 pitches failed to clinch the game -- and only then -- did the cruel spotlight find him, following a lazy grounder that skipped along like a rabbit in a cornfield.
Hey, I'm not excusing the error. He blew it. But even if Buckner had stopped the roller, he never could have beaten Wilson to the bag. The Mets would have had runners on first and third, with Howard Johnson coming up, the Grim Reaper on the mound, Shea rocking and the Sox reeling like Tommy Hearns to the Mets' charging Marvin Hagler. You think this team could rally from such a stunning collapse? Please. Catatonics don't regroup.
Allsport
Gimpy-but-game Buckner needed high-tops to support his ailing ankles.
Apparently, none of this matters. Time passes, memories fade, facts grow hazy ... and everyone believes Bill Buckner blew the World Series. Sadly, we need scapegoats, whether it's Buckner, Mitch Williams or Fred Merkle. And sadly, this isn't Hollywood, where Robin Williams could cradle Billy Buck, tell him, "It's not your fault, it's not your fault" and make everything OK. If athletes screw up on a bright enough stage, they never stop paying for it; they're convicts serving life. And since only a world championship in Boston can exonerate Buckner, the pardon may never come.
Let the record show, Buckner's worst mistake was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Let it also show the Sox wouldn't have gotten so close without him. You don't have to buy one of those signed photos of The Play, but you don't have to hope somebody breaks one over his head, either.
Give him a break.
Bill Simmons is a columnist for Page 2 and ESPN The Magazine.
<< <i>Bill Buckner is still a freakin loser for not fielding that ball, I dont care what you say, if he made that play the game would have been won. I dont believe that the series loss was all his to blame though, McNamara was a complete idiot for allowing him be in the game at that point. >>
I agree 100%. re McNamara, but even if BB or his defensive replacement had made the play, the game would not necesdsarily been won. They would have moved to the 11th inning.
<< <i>Happy birthday Bill >>
Got nothing better to do than bumping old threads to say happy birthday to people? Send them a card instead.
<< <i>even if BB or his defensive replacement had made the play, the game would not necesdsarily been won. They would have moved to the 11th inning. >>
...one FACT rarely pointed out...or remembered.
<< <i>Is beantown treating ol' Bill any better these days? Or are there people out there that think it's all his fault and don't think winning 3 since '04 is enough? >>
I think the city has largely moved past that now. IIRC the team honored him ast some point over the last couple of years and vast majority of crowd cheered him. Paul would know more about it.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is beantown treating ol' Bill any better these days? Or are there people out there that think it's all his fault and don't think winning 3 since '04 is enough? >>
I think the city has largely moved past that now. IIRC the team honored him ast some point over the last couple of years and vast majority of crowd cheered him. Paul would know more about it. >>
Winning removes all wounds. I would believe that if the sox hadn't won they would still be sore at Buckner, but with (now) multiple world series wins, and the great time which has elapsed, most fans don't even care about 1986 anymore.
Yes Boston has moved on, Im not sure if its the new generation of younger people that have been spoiled over the past 10 years or so but his name isnt even brought up during Sox talk.
I almost cried as a 16 year old when that happened and will never forget that play but seriously the miracle in 2004 pretty much erased that play in my book, nobody in Red Sox nation can complain about anything at this point.
Still have my stub from that game (Wouldn't mind still having the lady that went to the game with me that day ... HAHAHAHA).
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.