Brick and motor dying off??

kingraider75

One story is closing here in the Los Angeles area, and I know of another that might close this month too. I guess Ebay is destroying the shop sales.

gosteelers

I don't know how any survive. I know one of the shops by me caters almost exclusively to 'Magic' (I think that's what it is) parties/clubs...He stays open late and has contests/best pull awards...He states that Magic, and other non-sports stuff are the only things that keep his shop open...

AISAVDBBALLINPHILLY

The only full-time shop went out of business in Allentown/Lehigh Valley two months ago. It's definitely a dying breed.

jmbkb4

<< <i>I don't know how any survive. I know one of the shops by me caters almost exclusively to 'Magic' (I think that's what it is) parties/clubs...He stays open late and has contests/best pull awards...He states that Magic, and other non-sports stuff are the only things that keep his shop open... >>


Hey Mark, don't knock us "Magic" people........

gosteelers

Not to get too far OT, but...Magic anyone?

One Very 'Magic'al Card

Stone193

Ebay, the overproduction of the 90s, total/partial lack of business and marketing expertise, inability to adapt and diversify, cheap product at shows and overstocked shelves at Walmart, Kmart....

I guess the list is probably longer?

But my all time first: general rudeness and apathy coupled with an attitude that you can take it or leave it.

*I'm not saying all shops are this way BTW, but the ones that failed may have had some of these attributes.

mike

ctsoxfan

I agree - apathy and general rudeness probably closed more hobby stores than Ebay, but it's close...

Not just Ebay, but the internet has killed shops as well. Want supplies? You can find 10 sites that will sell you supplies cheaper, and probably ship them for free quickly. Want wax boxes? Same thing, even more so. Want single cards? This is where you need grading, but I have a better chance finding a card online than in any local hobby store.

pandrews

Boopotts

I think the larger problem-- and one that will eventually bring the modern hobby to its knees-- is the actual dollar loss that someone suffers whenever they buy a box. Flash back to 1987, for instance, when you could buy a box of Topps for about $12 and sell the contents for $4 or so. You took a 66% loss on the product, but you only really lost about $8. Now if you take a 66% loss on a break you're looking at losing some real money. Because of this you almost HAVE to buy new product online, since it's paramount that you recoup at least a fraction of this mammoth loss. If a box cost $70 at a hobby shop, and $50 online, and the contents could be sold for $40, I could deal with that $20 loss just for the instant gratification of getting it now. But if the box costs $120 in a hobby shop, and $80 online, and the contents sell for $50, well, no-- I can't accept that opening the box is worth $70.

WinPitcher

RENT


Try paying the rent that some of these guys have/had to. Unless you own the bldg. RENT is a tuff nut to crack each month. In 1983 I opened a store and the rent was 400.00 a month. by 1992 it was at 993.00 10 percent increases per yr. Granted i was wise enough to carry other hobby related items such as plastic models and things and I mainly did it as a way to be with my kids after school, but can you imagine having to come up with that sort of dough each month? add con ed and a phone (which at that time was way more expensive then it is today) and you have a recipe for disaster. What was great about it though was all the opportunities it provides for you to get stuff that you would not nesessarily be able to find. Things would walk in the door it seemed all the time. Please remm that when you think about the time the dealer only offered you 30 cents on the dollar for the VG card you figured was gonna allow you to retire to the south of France on.

Then everyone and their brother became a dealer and ...........well unless you had money and were able to buy all the time (and all the stuff) it was difficult. My experience was great as i was able to be with my children after school (they grew up in that store) I had a few video games and their was a deli next door. ahhh the memories.


In any event so many of the late 80's entrants to the hobby opened stores that it was just too much. The hobby itself did not help matters by coming out with 1000's of different products each year too. And by the time I got out it was the beginning of the end anyway. I never had to compete with the internet. Guys like 707 have the perfect business model. But it is not easy. Shows, internet sales and running a shop are all time consuming and labor intensive. hats should go off to guys like that.


Steve

stevek

The shop owners I know, I'm not personal friends with them, but one of them I have been to a party at his house and he is rich. Yet he owns a little nickel-dime baseball card/coin shop. I guess he does it to occupy his time and keep active in the hobby. He does ebay also but not on a large scale. He has told me that he has had some older folks walk in and sell him their cards and coins dirt cheap, so I guess a shop owner's dream will always be someone walking in to sell them a t206 Wagner or something of the sort for a song and a dance.

Frankly, a person with a wife, a few kids, and a home mortgage to pay, and with store rent and expenses, I can't see how they could make a living these days owning a typical baseball card/coin shop. The "elite" shops though selling four and five figure items, certainly could make a good living.

WinPitcher

1987, for instance, when you could buy a box of Topps for about $12 and sell the contents for $4 or so.


Boo no one lost money on 87 product...........in 87 that is for sure. cards were selling for dollars each. The only way one lost money on 87 product is if they held on to it. I do not know of anyone that bought a box of Topps for 12.00 (first off 10.40 was wholesale) and sold the contents for 4.00. If anything they pulled the stars and rookies and maybe sold the commons for 4.00 And if you sold them by the pack the 10.40 wholesale price returned 18.00 at .50 a pack.
People then would buy singles to complete a set and a nickel a card was the norm.


guys that built sets and sold them for 25.00 didn't lose money. As they had tons of singles left over.


Steve

fiveniner

Even though I buy 99% of my stuff on the internet sometime I wish we could turn back the clock and go back to the days when shops and shows both flourished and you had that interaction with other hobbyists.I met a lot of great folks during that period and would spends hours discusing our finds etc.I couldnt wait for the next card show which were only 4 or 5 times a year.Most of the card shops dealt in real vintage stuff along with new releases.I always knew what I was getting now many times your nrmt turns out to be a vg on the net.PLEASE IF YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO GRADE PLEASE DO NOT PRETEND YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SELLING.

Boopotts

<< <i>1987, for instance, when you could buy a box of Topps for about $12 and sell the contents for $4 or so.


Boo no one lost money on 87 product...........in 87 that is for sure. cards were selling for dollars each. The only way one lost money on 87 product is if they held on to it. I do not know of anyone that bought a box of Topps for 12.00 (first off 10.40 was wholesale) and sold the contents for 4.00. If anything they pulled the stars and rookies and maybe sold the commons for 4.00 And if you sold them by the pack the 10.40 wholesale price returned 18.00 at .50 a pack.
People then would buy singles to complete a set and a nickel a card was the norm.


guys that built sets and sold them for 25.00 didn't lose money. As they had tons of singles left over.


Steve >>



That wasn't my experience as a 15 year old kid, and anyway Steve you're missing my larger point. If you made money on '87 Topps that's great; what I'm trying to say is that in the past the losing proposition that was busting boxes wasn't as damaging to the pocketbook as it is today.

theczar

the advent of grading and the ease of e-bay did kill the stores. there was no way a store could have so much inventory to handle every customers needs. even if you live in a huge metropolitan area there are only so many customers. e-bay has given you a customer base of billions.
some guy wants to finish a 55 bowman set, the next guy wants to see your 1987 OPC hockey commons, some kid wants to see the 2006 reggie bush cards. who could possibly have all of the needs in all of the sports in a card shop. you would need a 20,000 sq ft building to have everything, the inventory costs would be enormous and the manpower to sort everything in its proper place would be overwhelming.
now with grading most people can have a reputable 3rd party pre-judge the card for you. some guy in montana is not hesitant to buy a card from someone in georgia, even though he has only seen pictures of the card and not held in his hand. at any given time there is card that day that most of us would want to add to our collection. the price is determined by the market of others chasing after it. if it gets too high we look for something different. most of us are spending more now on cards than we ever did going to a store because of the variety out there. plus if we want to upgrade we can get rid of the old stuff and not worry about getting 25% of what we paid on a regular basis.

how many of us were "weekend warriors" setting up at card shows for $50-$100 a table? sure i enjoyed the socializing but i usually bought more than i sold. now i don't have to waste a day lugging cards around. i post them on ebay and forget about for a week.

first the barber shops, then the card stores. the only place where a guy can go to socialize and kill time with a bunch of other guys without being nagged is the strip clubs. and that gets a lot more expensive than the cards stores. plus you NEVER came home smelling like an ashtray after being in a card store.

Stone193

All the issues with the card companies - overproduction, expensive product, perceived value etc. are important in looking at where the hobby may go.

But, that would be only one component to the demise of the shop.

As Steve told you...look at all the elements to running a shop...rent, elec., insurance etc.

Adaptation is the key - adding other products like game cards, baseball caps, novelty items.

Marketing: both internal and external.

Perhaps thinking outside the hobby box to keep the place vital.

As I said ebay, Walmart/Kmart - competing with these guys.

Find ways to get people into your shop - start programs with kids - bring a report card with 2 A's and get a pack of Topps free - parent has to come with them - rarely will someone walk in and just ask for the free pack and leave.

In 1991, people were throwing money at the shop owners - by 2001, they were throwing STONES!

mike

Stone193

<< <i>first the barber shops, then the card stores. the only place where a guy can go to socialize and kill time with a bunch of other guys without being nagged is the strip clubs. and that gets a lot more expensive than the cards stores. plus you NEVER came home smelling like an ashtray after being in a card store. >>


czar

IMO, that's why this forum is so popular - this is like sitting in the barber shop and shooting the bull.

mike

helionaut

Ebay and the Internet certainly do contribute to shops closing, but I don't think they're really the main factor. I attribute the death of shops to the shrinking of the collector base. Ten years ago I'd go to the local 30-table monthly show and at the 10 AM opening time, the line would be winding down the hall and into the lobby of the hotel (maybe 50-60 people) waiting to get in. Now, dealers usually outnumber customers at any given time of day. Where did everyone go? They're not all shopping exclusively online. They just aren't collecting. The 15-20 year-olds from 10 years ago are now 25-30, and they just are doing other things, and few new collectors have taken their places. The price of entry into the hobby is much higher now, and that's where the cardmakers hurt themselves. Like it or not, sets like Bazooka, MVP, and Total aren't setting anyone hearts aglow and giving them the connection to the players like the 1 or 3 sets we used to have did. Even the "premium" sets of 15 years ago are non-existent in the form that would give people who are willing to spend $80-100 on a box a thrill. Nowadays, if you spend that much on a box aside from the Ultimate/Sterling type products, you're going to get maybe 12 packs of 5 cards each, and that's not going to excite anyone. Where are the 24-pack boxes with 12 cards per pack that, even if you didn't hit a really big insert card, still left you with a big stack of cards towards a set that's actually a bit of a challenge and fun to build? The Leafs and Ultras that were a step above basic sets and still provided a bit of a thrill with inserts and whatnot definitely were keystone products that were kind of the gateway to the modern hobby. Now, all the "value" of a box is likely held in one key card, and the rest is just dross. The success of GU and autos kind of damned the rest of the stuff to obscurity. And that since stuff is now essential, all products now require a big cost for the card makers beyond printing, which is passed onto the customer. All of which means that to be "worth" buying, a box has to deliver at least the thought that a huge prize is inside, and fewer people are willing to take that chance. Instead, the majority of these boxes contain 40-45 cards towards a 90-card set that is hardly what you'd call a comprehensive overview of the sport, and not worth building. And besides, if you want that set, you can likely find it for $9 delivered on ebay.

And dang, $1750 for a PSA 10 Black Lotus is a great deal, even if it is an Unlimited. I'd've bought that in a second, after thinking about it for a few minutes.

bladefox

King Raider, I live in the L.A. Area, which shops are closing? I'm guessing it's a small shop or two. PLMK.

originalisbest

It's as simple as one four-letter word - RENT. Unless you were to own the building... I concur with what Winpitcher said.

Up through the height of the 'early 90's card craze, I worked in a coin/card shop as my high school job - and yes, the memories are great, my boss was a real good guy. Good times.

Thulnanth

With all the overhead a brick-and-mortar store has verses an online-only business, it is hard to compete. All the cardshops I know that are still open are either very diversified or have an online presence.

$1750 for an Unlimited PSA10 Lotus? The last Beta PSA10 went for 6K

Take it easy,
Jared

WinPitcher

Boo

Not to beat a dead horse here but I saw your greater point and agree. I do disagree though with the anology of using 87 packs and 100.00 packs of today. Are you really telling me that as a 15 yr. old you bought a box of 87 Topps for 15.00, opened the packs then sold them for 4.00? Cuz that is what you said. Or did you pull out all the dollar cards and then sell the remaining crap for 4.00?

Hell even Mike Aldrete was at a 1.00 at one point.

Bonds, Canseco, McGwire, etc etc etc?

My point was in 87 money was made by just about everyone that sold. The only losers were the guys that held unto them when the bubble burst. Maybe at that point in time you would have gotten 4.00 for those cards. If that.


Steve

Boopotts

<< <i>Boo

Not to beat a dead horse here but I saw your greater point and agree. I do disagree though with the anology of using 87 packs and 100.00 packs of today. Are you really telling me that as a 15 yr. old you bought a box of 87 Topps for 15.00, opened the packs then sold them for 4.00? Cuz that is what you said. Or did you pull out all the dollar cards and then sell the remaining crap for 4.00?

Hell even Mike Aldrete was at a 1.00 at one point.

Bonds, Canseco, McGwire, etc etc etc?

My point was in 87 money was made by just about everyone that sold. The only losers were the guys that held unto them when the bubble burst. Maybe at that point in time you would have gotten 4.00 for those cards. If that.


Steve >>





I knew nobody who would buy the commons-- nobody. I could sell the RC's for between .25 and $2 each (.25 for Kruk, $2 for McGwire) in the EARLY part of the year, although by June or July that had cooled off considerably.

Hand collated complete sets were selling for $10 to $12 in hobby shops around the Detroit area. The real money was in the '87 Donruss and Fleer products, but those sold for $1 a pack at least at every shop in this area.

Boopotts

Also, Mike Aldrete was never $1. I still have 500 of these that I bought for .12 each through an SCD ad, and if they had ever gotten up to a buck each I would have known about it. They climbed to about 20 cents at one point and stalled there.

duner

I disagree that Ebay is putting these shops out of business....but as stone mentioned it's a lack of business savvy, and most are too stubborn to adapt and overcome. I'd bet Ebay keeps more of these shops in business than it sinks.

I feel comfortable that I could create a business scheme that would be profitable. The problem is, profitable dealers mimic every other successful business in our society. You need a model that resembles Walmart. Consequently, the capital required for the start up and the time commitment would be extremely high, and you'd need multiple employees to handle the volume required to turn the profit.

The main problem with the traditional card shop is it's just a little store w/ a single dealer who sits there and waits for customers to throw money at him....all other businesses that operate on that principle were squeeezed out 25 years ago.

Goodsport40

One of my oldest friends has a shop that he and his dad started in the late 1980's. They stayed in business all of these years because of service, honesty and being able to adapt to the changing business of sportscards. They started carrying other product as early as 1991 because they recognized they couldn't survive with cards only. Unfortunately, they had to relocate to a much more expensive location. Is he apprehensive? Heck, yes. Will he survive? Time will tell. He has a good eBay presence and does a lot of business online. Also, he had a good core of loyal buyers. He seems to be the exception to the rule. But, when they started, there were multiple stores in the area. There are now only 2.

Robert

Stone193

If one has any chance at surviving - even a well proposed business model - CAPITAL will be a key factor.

Many businesses are underfunded and can't survive the tough times required during the growing pains.

Plus, there are more unforeseen money problems than one can imagine. Everytime I turn around, something breaks or wears out in my office.

I accidentally broke the copy machine anally cleaning it and touching something that I should not have touched - repair? 200$ down the drain!!!!!!!!!

tedh111

The main reason that it is harder for shops to stay in business is the lack of interest in base cards and sets. If there was more interest in base cards, people would feel that they are getting more value out of a box instead of relying on the inserts to add value. Even the younger generation doesnt seem to be happy with a base card of one of today's stars out of a pack, they need to find that insert card to make them happy. As a reuslt, companies began adding more and more into the boxes which began to diminish the after-market value of the inserts. As a result of putting more of these inserts into boxes, the costs to the manufacturers are higher, and therefore the prices for these types of boxes becomes higher. I don't open packs too much anymore, but when i do i still appreciate the players inside wether they are an insert or not, but it does not seem like many people do anymore.

Stone193

Ted

All true. Perhaps the industry has to totally implode - deemphasizing beckett value - and attact new buyers interested in nice cards with superb photography and quality players and RCs.

I fear the cat is out of the bag forever tho.

WinPitcher

Boo

I just moved 2 feet of snow at the places I take care of.

I agree with you.


Steve

wolfbear

<< <i> I accidentally broke the copy machine anally cleaning it ... >>


Next time just use your hands and a rag Stone ...

kuhlmann

Ill add to this as some of you know i used to own a shop.. but it was more of a college store. i gave money to little league and softball.

little league was useless. how many people can afford a 3$ pack of cards every day? the prices of the packs is what drives most store owners out of the biz. we spent 500$ on a little league team didnt see 1 kid in the store.

I did real well with the sales of georgia bulldogs stuff. the internet sales were crazy but it got to the point where we were getting orders that we couldnt fill.

most stuff we carried on line were from drop ship companies. we get an order they would have a 100$ minimum and we would order the 100$ to fill the 50$ order to add more product to the store. there is no way i can see a card shop without the other sports merchandise making it. like steve said you got rent phone electirc insurance etc..

all sh$$$T hit the fan with partners divorce etc... but being on the internet all day i figured out better ways to make money without the hassle of shipping rent phone etc..

I dealt with about 20 people on these boards buying off me. and thank all of them. wish i could get you guys heritage this year, but its been since june that i talked to a distributer.

If you do open a store ebay has to be a big part of your biz. as im typing this i just noticed my oldwebsite was bought by a poker site and they are selling the domain name. crazy!

kuhlmann

also think about this.. fleer is out of biz.. one of my main dist.. had to merge with another company im guessing to stay alive. bc i used to go into there wharehouse and they had boxes on top of boxes they werent moving at all. they would have boxes of lets say sp authentic. that started out at 105$ a box(dont remember exact pricing) but 3 weeks later they drop price to like 80$ less then what they got it for.

i just think the modern biz is dying.