1984 Donruss Mattingly & the "0" certification myth:

downgoesfrazier

Unlike many folks here, I have had tremendous success with the old flips and "0" certs. I saw this Mattingly on eBay a few weeks back. I had wanted a PSA 10 and have seen them all go well above the 800.00 mark. This card looked like an awfully nice MINT 9. Since it had the old flip, and I knew that 10's were WAY tougher to come by back then, I took a gamble. If you don't think 10's were tougher back 'in the day', you're a goofball and haven't been paying attention to anything over the past 2-3 years, and should just go to a different thread quietly and exist in your dream-land with the other unenlightened.
Meanwhile, back in reality, the Mattingly arrived. The first thing I did was check the surface and reverse for anything outside of PSA 10 quality. I own over 100 1984 Donruss cards in PSA 10 so I have a fairly good idea what the 10's look like. I grabbed my new loupe I got for Christmas and measured it. It measures well within PSA's guidelines for a 10. It is 53/47 TB and right on LR within 2%. It is nice & square. The registration is perfect. The borders are more cream than blast white. It originated in a non-factory set as the corners are paper-cutter sharp and the borders are nice and fat. In short, I think I saved myself about $750 bucks here. I am contemplating breaking him out and sending him in. Since I wouldn't sell it anytime soon, however, it doesn't really make sense to do so.
The point is, these "0" certs for post 1970 cards seem to be the way to go. PSA was doing so few cards (relatively speaking) from this era back then (it was mostly vintage) that they seemed to have higher expectations of a 10. It wasn't until the new flips and the $5 specials that 10-fest began. This is a heck of a card for $50 bucks vs. $800. I would have to say that the 84 Donruss Mattingly in a 10 is the modern era's most overpriced sportscard--when being compared to a centered, sharp, MINT 9.





dgf

tennesseebanker

CRACK IT !

Nascar360

Very interesting...What kind of loupe did you get (Make)?

Stingray

Question of the flip, what do you mean by old? How old is this one based on the "0" designation? I thought the oldest of the flips had the zeros with the slash through them? Then came the flip with the hologram on the back?? Can someone give a timeline of the flips that have been used by PSA.


Stingray

BigRedMachine

Stingray, great question. I'm confused too.

I have PSA flips that start with, for example, the number 8. But ones I just got back that start with the number 3. I didn't think the order had anything to do with the numbers on the front that the cards were graded. I thought the old flips had a different font to them.

Are you saying that PSA cards are graded in order and thus the ones that start with zero were graded first??? I guess I'm saying this cannot be true, unless 8 now comes before 3 in the number system.

Someone enlighten me.

P.S. Darn nice looking Mattingly.

ArnyVee

Crack it Frazier...that's a stunner!

I didn't know that you were an '84 Donruss collector. Are you on the registry?

divecchia

<< <i>Question of the flip, what do you mean by old? How old is this one based on the "0" designation? I thought the oldest of the flips had the zeros with the slash through them? Then came the flip with the hologram on the back?? Can someone give a timeline of the flips that have been used by PSA.


Stingray >>



That's what I thought. The oldest flips had the slash through the zero.

Donato

mikeschmidt

That is an awesome Mattingly '84 Donruss, for sure.

WinPitcher

Very nice indeed. Possible 10 material.

as for the old flip

the oldest of the old had the slash thru them, yet the ones just after that start with 0 as well and do not have the slash.

So in effect the certs that start with 0 w/o a slash are old too, just not as old as the ones with the slash and old style font.


I think this is what i have been told from a few old timers.


Steve

brumbach

Who cares about flips and zeroes with registration like that? Fantastic card!

Regarding the zeroes, it's probably after the slashes through the zeroes but before some of the more current high-volume modern specials. I could be wrong though, I'm not that well versed on the flip numbers.

downgoesfrazier

PSA originally used the 0 cert. The red borders on the flip are rounded. This card was likely graded in the late 90's if I had to guess.

dgf

gameusedhoop

There are many cards out there with the old "0" serial numbers that have been reholdered over time, I know, I have done it myself. Some people are scared to buy the 0 flips with the slashes, thinking that PSA didn't know what they were doing early on. As DGF said, this is BS, as many older flip cards are nicer than their current counterparts. I think PSA was being very careful early on and didn't want to be called out for liberal grading.

This being said, some buyers choose to totally avoid a 0 flip with the slashes, but when the card is in a new holder (same serial #, new flip with the current font), they become active bidders. I usually spend the $5 to get a decent $$$ card reholdered just to have a nice clean, unscratched holder as well as opening the bidding to all interested buyers without the 0 slash predjudice.

WinPitcher

I admit at one time I thought that zero certs were bad. But some of my nicest cards have certs that start with 0.

I guess it is like anything. some are hi end, some not.

Steve

Stone193

<< <i>This is a heck of a card for $50 bucks vs. $800 >>


Phil

I think that's the biggest understatement since Custer said: "look over the hill? I think they're friendly indians!"

Even if it never got a 10, it's a screamer and worthy, as such, to be in my collection any day of the week!

Unless someone has money falling out of their pockets, I'll take a card like that any day of the week and twice on Sunday!!

I think ya did real good.
congratulations on having a good eye!

mike

rvc

dgf- nice mattingly, job well done.

fsjeter

I also heard that the first few numbers on the flip were the indentifcation number of the grader. I'm not sure how it works because if you look at the McNall/Gretzky PSA 8 Honus Wagner, the cert # is 00000001. It's my understanding that this was the first card graded by PSA, however, the 0's don't have the slash through them. It is very confusing indeed.

Scott

downgoesfrazier

I think the slashes came later. I have a couple of cards with the slashes. I really don't like the fact that the font isdifferent, but I like the cards.
Gamusedhoop, I agree about reholdering cards and garnering interest. It's absolutely nuts. Many collectors are like sheep.
I say--bring on the old, crappy cards with those "0"'s, I'll take 'em off your hands at a discount. It's almost like buying SGC graded stuff before people started to figure it out. Believe it or not, there are STILL collectors out there that think that SGC is a cut-rate, second-tier outfit in terms of quality. It blows me away. It was fun though when I could bid on an SGC 96 from the 70's, win it for dirt and crack it out and send it to PSA and get a 10. I'd re-list the card many times just weeks later and the same card I bought for $3 sold for $120. I personally like the Catfish Hunter story from 1977...
1. Seller "a" lists card. SGC 92 1977 Jim Hunter. I bid 15.00 and win it for $9 + 3.50 S/H. Total invested $12.49
2. I have trouble finding a PSA graded copy I like and can't seem to find one in the vending cases.
3. I decide to crack out the SGC 92 and send it to PSA for an 8 toi hold a place in my set.
4. The card is graded a PSA MINT 9.
5. I sell the card BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SELLER for $500. PSA even lightly touched the LL corner when grading/holdering the card.

Before you lynch me for disclosure, I told the buyer it was a PSA MINT 9. I didn't say "It's a blazer, dude!" He emailed me and said "do you have a Catfish?"
I said, "why yes, I do." He offers me the dough and I send the card. He writes me and says the card is awesome!!!...go figure.

This relates to this thread in that some collectors pay little attention to the specimens in the holder. They see what they want to see and bid accordingly. It's a free country, but it is a touch maddening at times.


dgf

Ahmanfan

a lot of my cards that get to psa seem to have more corner wear then before. is this normal?

JOhn

ps: nice mattingly!

jmbkb4

<< <i>a lot of my cards that get to psa seem to have more corner wear then before. is this normal?

JOhn

ps: nice mattingly! >>


Yes, isn't there some law of Physics stating that the natural order of the world is to move towards chaos (entropy)?

dakota

Nice card....way to let the cat out of the bag Dgf.....now all the sheep wont believe the myth anymore about staying away from the 0 certs. just kidding(a little bit). Anyhow,you speak the truth and there are MANY nice cards that were graded long ago.
My vote is CRACK IT!!!

DeutscherGeist

DGF,

I have known of you for a long time ever since I joined this board. You are someone who has very keen eyes when evaluating a card.... I read your posts whenever I can.

I look for a card I like, not the holder....thanks for sharing those stories.


As for the Mattingly....Well, its no secret that I am a big fan of his and must say what a pick up. That is a solid card!! I notice that it is off center, but not to the degree that will prevent it from getting a PSA 10.

Stingray

<< <i>I also heard that the first few numbers on the flip were the indentifcation number of the grader. I'm not sure how it works because if you look at the McNall/Gretzky PSA 8 Honus Wagner, the cert # is 00000001. It's my understanding that this was the first card graded by PSA, however, the 0's don't have the slash through them. It is very confusing indeed.

Scott >>




That card originally had the zeros with the slashes on the flip but was redone with a new flip. I believe that the zeros with slashes are the oldest type of flip. Then came the flip with the hologram on the back, then the light blue backing and now the current darker blue backing. I am just guessing though.


Stingray

tkd7

OK, I decided to test the 0 cert theory. I picked up this card at auction.
Not exactly sure why I bought it, I thought I would get outbid but didn't.
I was doing a search on Jackie Robinson cards and this one looked real nice.

Stingray

Based on the font and how it is kind off to the right a little, I bet that has the hologram on the back of it!? I think those came after the ones with the zeros with the slashes.


Stingray

lostdart58

................so logic then would follow that 50 years from now the old (and early ) graded cards would be worth more then a newer recent graded card...........and perhaps by then they will be grading the holders that the cards are graded in.............DAMN I better not get any scratches............ and gonna hoard my "old" flips......

tkd7

Put it out there and someone will buy it