Thoughts relating to the 88 Donruss Thread
dakota
Posts: 235
I was reading the thread about the guy thinking about doing the 88 Donruss baseball graded and had some thoughts about the future of grading newer cards. I started a separate thread because I didnt want to hijack that one as my comments have nothing to do with an opinion of whether he should or shouldnt do it. Rather I have thoughts about what PSA must do if they want to continue to grow. Now I dont know what PSAs costs are for grading a card but they are missing the boat on potenial profits.
Let me get to the point....They need to lower their grading fee for cards say 1972 and up. Not just a 5.00 special ...but lower. Virtually every card from that era in anything less than a 9(and in some cases a 9) are not worth the plastic they came in. Recently there has been a growing trend of collectors that want to start a newer (modern) type graded sets. Everyone involved in the Registry should want that.The more collectors the better. These guys hopefully are not in it for the investment but the fun and good times.At $5 and $6 bucks a card its not gonna happen. PSA has to lower the price for the modern common stuff. Could they do it for say 2.50 card?? I dont know? Will the 88 Donruss collector still lose his ass? Yeah,probably but not so much and he has fun doing it without such a hurt to the bank account. PSA wins because they grade a whole grip load of cards they otherwise would not have graded.And that collector moves on to another graded set to spend more $$$ with PSa and has a bunch of fun in the process. How many of you out there would start a modern set if the fees were much lower?? And the junk wax/rack sellers win as well.
Lets talk about a segment of the hobby that Im very familiar with ...The 70s. Just about the only ones to be able to submit that stuff is the DSLs(anybody really know who these guys are???) and 4sc ,etc for whatever bulk rate that they get. Most of the 70s even in 9s will be a losing proposition anymore.Im sitting on a boatload of NM-MT stuff I would love to grade but why??
Now before the Softparades jump on me about the passion and who cares about the $$$ ....you gotta know that Im one of you guys as well.Im a collector and have the same passion about hi grade cards.But you have to be somewhat sensible about it.Some cards look just great in a cardsaver like DGF does.Im on that program with some sets.
Im not making this suggestion for the investing part of the hobby. My opinion of some collectors who look at our hobby as the Stockmarket can go to hell.Its not Wall ST. Buy real estate or something else.
I think PSA does a great job and the registry is alot of fun. By lowering the fees they will appeal to a whole new segment of young collectors.Anybody else?????????
Let me get to the point....They need to lower their grading fee for cards say 1972 and up. Not just a 5.00 special ...but lower. Virtually every card from that era in anything less than a 9(and in some cases a 9) are not worth the plastic they came in. Recently there has been a growing trend of collectors that want to start a newer (modern) type graded sets. Everyone involved in the Registry should want that.The more collectors the better. These guys hopefully are not in it for the investment but the fun and good times.At $5 and $6 bucks a card its not gonna happen. PSA has to lower the price for the modern common stuff. Could they do it for say 2.50 card?? I dont know? Will the 88 Donruss collector still lose his ass? Yeah,probably but not so much and he has fun doing it without such a hurt to the bank account. PSA wins because they grade a whole grip load of cards they otherwise would not have graded.And that collector moves on to another graded set to spend more $$$ with PSa and has a bunch of fun in the process. How many of you out there would start a modern set if the fees were much lower?? And the junk wax/rack sellers win as well.
Lets talk about a segment of the hobby that Im very familiar with ...The 70s. Just about the only ones to be able to submit that stuff is the DSLs(anybody really know who these guys are???) and 4sc ,etc for whatever bulk rate that they get. Most of the 70s even in 9s will be a losing proposition anymore.Im sitting on a boatload of NM-MT stuff I would love to grade but why??
Now before the Softparades jump on me about the passion and who cares about the $$$ ....you gotta know that Im one of you guys as well.Im a collector and have the same passion about hi grade cards.But you have to be somewhat sensible about it.Some cards look just great in a cardsaver like DGF does.Im on that program with some sets.
Im not making this suggestion for the investing part of the hobby. My opinion of some collectors who look at our hobby as the Stockmarket can go to hell.Its not Wall ST. Buy real estate or something else.
I think PSA does a great job and the registry is alot of fun. By lowering the fees they will appeal to a whole new segment of young collectors.Anybody else?????????
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Comments
Good stuff Dakota, and PSA could grade these cards and seal them in a card saver lets say. That would reduce their costs ALOT I would think. Afterall, they steal all of our card savers anyway!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Good points all around.......but I do not think that PSA can cut much off of $5.
I also do not think that PSA graders are sitting around and doing nothing.....they got more then enough cards to grade as it is.....
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Some of those sets still contain the clemente's, ryan's, etc.
I would think from around 87 and up or at the least 81 and up.
JMHO
Steve
<< <i>Great points indeed, however i disagree with the sentiment that cards from 1972 and up are worthless unless they are 9's and 10's.
Some of those sets still contain the clemente's, ryan's, etc.
I would think from around 87 and up or at the least 81 and up.
JMHO
Steve >>
Steve, not much difference but my cutoff is 1986 and up. A cheaper graded alternative to cards involved in the explosion is a good idea I think. Alot of guys in their 20's now were unfortunate enough to remember these cards in early childhood. Of course, like with me (mid and late 70's), that means alot.....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Brent
Bo Jackson Basic(#1) and Master(#1)
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I think 1981 is a great suggestion as a cut off and they could exclude the major rookies. Agreed that there are some great HOFs in the 70s which is why I said "virtually" all the cards. I also feel strongly that the graders do a terrific job and should be compensated for their talents and hard work. Just trying to bring some ideas that could make a lot of people happy. Im almost positive the $5 and $6 dollar price tag is keepin a huge portion of cards from being sent in.
Yes softparade ...you have a rep.....as the 1978 Madman!!!
After they pay the grader and Seal it they can't be making too much per card. I would be happy with just $4 a card special couple times a year for all 1981 an up. I feel 81 and up really am Modern. Does PSA read there own board and my get wind of this great Idea for us Modern Card Collectors???? Maybe the idea has come up and was not cost effective for them. Remember they are running a business and they need to keep the doors open so we have something to do with our cards. LOL Well that’s my 2 cents.
Joe
Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher
Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
Winpitcher> While it's true that some of the early 70s set do have major HOFers in it, have you looked at what PSA8 commons are currently selling for? I have somewhere between 300-350 1974T PSA8 commons - and I'll be absolutely tickled to get more than say $3.75 each. Take the 1978 Topps that Softparade loves. . .PSA9 commons routinely sell for $5 or less. . .so what does that tell you about what 8s go for? While the stars will always sell. . .commons can be REALLY tough to recoup grading fees.
I think there's a price/return issue at work here. Doing a graded set means you have a certain number of stars and a huge number of commons. And DSL and 4SC will tell you - it's all a numbers game for them. How many PSA10s do they need to get in order to pay for all the extra PSA9s they get and still make money on their orders? Take 88D for example. . .if PSA10 commons are only going to fetch $10 each, that won't make up for too many PSA9s which probably won't sell for grading fees.
And with set building, the commons are key. One of the big advantages of building a 1960s or 1970s set in PSA holders is that you can go to eBay on any given day and find cards available. But for the later 80s to the present, there haven't been enough cards graded to make set building easier. It's here where PSA has an opportunity, I think. I mean if I have to submit all the cards myself, PSA and SGC are generally on pretty even territory. Where PSA can make strides is to lower the price on say 1986 and later - so that it's actually worthwhile for dealers to send in. I think there's enough demand to do the late 80s sets in graded form - but dealers aren't going to submit them until the numbers make sense for them. And right now, for the commons the numbers are against them.
While only PSA knows what their overhead is, has anyone else wondered why they have chosen to locate themselves in a very expensive area (Orange County, CA)? One would think they could dramatically lower their overhead by moving themselves to an area where real estate costs and cost of living is dramatically less.
Mike
Mike that is what i was saying. I used 87 or 81 as a date. I simply disagreed that cards from 72 and up were worthless. Dakota makes a great argument.
maybe I did not explain myself properly.
Steve
Stars, HOFers, and selected commons generally do well in PSA8. However, for 1972-1976 the overwhelming majority of commons in PSA8 holders simply will not sell for enough to recoup the grading fee. From 1977-present, many commons will not recoup the grading fees even in PSA9 holders.
The context I would use to define "worthless" is. . .can I make enough money on the high-grade (PSA10 or PSA9) cards on a given order to make up for the loss I will take on the lesser (worthless) cards? For example, in the last 4 months I've submitted quite a few 74T. As a general rule, I have to get 65-75% PSA9s and 10s to make up for any cards that won't recover the grading fees. If I understand you right, you disagree with my definition of "worthless" in this instance.
But. . .for something like 88D, I would say you absolutely can't get any 8s and will probably need 40-50% 10s to make up for all the cards that won't recoup grading fees. When you need to get 50% PSA10s in order to break even, it isn't a climate for a dealer to succeed. But I think this part we agree on.
Mike
How's this for a pricing category: chrome cards $3 each. Since chrome cards consistently grade much higher on average than traditional cardboard, they require less scrutiny and therefore less time, so more can be done in a given time. I'd bet a large percentage of cards submitted from 1993-up are some brand of chrome, especially 1999-up, and I think collectors would benefit from their own price point, and PSA would draw some customers away from BGS, the market's current grader of choice for these cards.
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
But to do it across the board on everything modern would actually kill the market!! We all have favorite sets...heck I have 200 85-86 Topps Hockey to grade...400 88-89 OPC hockey...600 1989 Fleer Baseball...200 2005 Topps Chrome Football.....300 1986 Topps Football...just sitting waiting for the right time to grade.
Yes, I'll grade the stars and low pop numbers.....and sit on the rest until I feel it's economical for me to do so..
But the practice of lowering grading fees will hurt everyone in the end!! The 10's will drop in value...the 9's will be like today's 8s....and it will get to a point where the resale value of cards will take the hit!! It's supply and demand....you drop the price..more cards get graded...more come to the market...and prices fall.....it's an age old philosophy.
Now if you're simply a collector...thoughts like that don't matter......if you're not in it for the resale value..no biggy!!
But most people who grade cards, whether 4 SC or DSL...are in it for business purposes. Everyone seems to B*TCH about their bulk grading..or "back door deals"....but common....if we could all afford to do the same thing...we would.
Talk about cutting prices just means that we will all devalue or collections.....sure..we all want to buy modern PSA 9 commons on Ebay at $3-$5 to fill sets...but then when we want to sell the sets...we complain about not getting SMR or close to it.
Clear cut case of wanting the cake and eating it too....I don't want to pay too much to grade my cards...but I want them to be worth alot once graded.
I agree with mcastaldi...you HAVE to send in the best of the best and hope and pray for the 9's and 10's...and let the 8's or qualifier cards get figured into the mix. If you're getting too many "worthless" grades, so to speak....become a better grader...it's not PSA's economic burden to make you money....oh yah, it's not about money...it's about collecting..right!!??!! One second it's not....then everything else says yes....
I never said they were worthless.
what i said was: Great points indeed, however i disagree with the sentiment that cards from 1972 and up are worthless unless they are 9's and 10's.
I simply agreed with dakota in his basic statement
I disagreed with the yr he alluded too.
I thought that cards from 81 or 87 would be an ideal cutoff date.
I implied that cards do have value.
I hope now that i have clarified my pos. on this.
Steve
"But the practice of lowering grading fees will hurt everyone in the end!! The 10's will drop in value...the 9's will be like today's 8s....and it will get to a point where the resale value of cards will take the hit!! It's supply and demand. . ."
--- Couldn't one argue that this is already happening - or has happened? Like I said, I have 300+ 1974T PSA8s that I'd love to get $3.50-$4.00 each for.
"There's one simple thing that eveeyone is over looking...if you've got alot of a certain year...make the call and get the reduced rate!"
--- One of the fun things about the registry is the ability to build a set without having to submit every card yourself. The ability to find graded cards available on eBay for the set you're collecting has always been something that's seperated PSA from the competition. If a collector has to submit every card themselves, PSA loses this advantage and competitors such as SGC start to look a lot more attractive.
"Talk about cutting prices just means that we will all devalue or collections.....sure..we all want to buy modern PSA 9 commons on Ebay at $3-$5 to fill sets...but then when we want to sell the sets...we complain about not getting SMR or close to it."
--- Don't you think that "gradeflation" has already made this happen?
Mike
"But the practice of lowering grading fees will hurt everyone in the end!! The 10's will drop in value...the 9's will be like today's 8s....and it will get to a point where the resale value of cards will take the hit!! It's supply and demand. . ."
--- Couldn't one argue that this is already happening - or has happened? Like I said, I have 300+ 1974T PSA8s that I'd love to get $3.50-$4.00 each for.
**** My point EXACTLY...it's already common practice...so further cuts will just add fuel to the existing problem!!***
"There's one simple thing that eveeyone is over looking...if you've got alot of a certain year...make the call and get the reduced rate!"
--- One of the fun things about the registry is the ability to build a set without having to submit every card yourself. The ability to find graded cards available on eBay for the set you're collecting has always been something that's seperated PSA from the competition. If a collector has to submit every card themselves, PSA loses this advantage and competitors such as SGC start to look a lot more attractive.
"Talk about cutting prices just means that we will all devalue or collections.....sure..we all want to buy modern PSA 9 commons on Ebay at $3-$5 to fill sets...but then when we want to sell the sets...we complain about not getting SMR or close to it."
--- Don't you think that "gradeflation" has already made this happen?
**** These 2 I'll try to cover together....yes PSA is the way to go for building sets.....singles can be bought and solod all day long on Ebay..and I totally 100% agree that it does make them standout in collecting....discounted cards can readily be had now on Ebay and other sites....My point is that if further cuts happen....even more cards/more discounts will happen"
Do I think it's inevitable....yes it is****
By the way, I think whats truely drives prices down is supply moreso than grading prices. You could make 1952 Topps $3 a card to grade and the price of PSA 8's won't move. It's not like people are hoarding Nmmt 1952 singles waiting for a special. The reason prices drop is because there is too much out there that is still ungraded and eventually will get graded.
Joe
Don Sutton Basic Set - 3rd All Time
Looking for 88 Donruss PSA 9 or Higher
Looking for Sutton's PSA 7 or Higher
I am willing to bet the '86 Topps set catches on. Those devilish black borders and nasty centering issues will make it popular when the times comes.
Great thread Dakota, I had not thought of the implications of a maturing market on PSA. It would seem that if they want to remain on the forefront they will have to look at something unique to spur the grading of newer card issues where there are serious margin issues for the customer.