Should Satin Finish Coins be allowed in sets of Circulation Strikes?

TAClough · January 29, 2006 7:13AM

1. Should Satin Finish (SF) coins be allowed in sets purporting to be Circulation Strikes?

2. What is a Circulation Strike coin and does the Satin Finish coins meet the criteria?

3. What are the pro(s) and con(s) of allowing an Either / Or solution of Satin Finish and Business Strike coins in sets of Circulation Strikes?

4. What is the fair thing for PCGS to do with the Registry regarding the Satin Finish coins?

5. Should the Satin Finish and the Business Strike examples be required in a set purporting to be Complete Sets?

Below is an email that I sent to David Hall along with his reply. Please comment on this email with your thoughts and feel free to contact Mr. Hall with your viewpoint (remember the squeaky wheel gets the grease).

January 26, 2006

Dear Mr. David Hall,

There has been a discussion on the Registry Forum lately about the 2005 Satin Finish coins being included in the Circulated Sets.

As far as the Registry, I wish PCGS would just look at its own home page; they have a link to a page called Lingo. PCGS further defines Circulation Strike on this Lingo page as: "An alternate term for Business Strike or Regular Strike. A coin meant for commerce." None of the 2005 Satin Finish coins were meant for commerce, they were produced by a special process (special dies), and do not belong in a set that has CIRCULATION STRIKES in the title. Put the Satin Finish coins where they belong, in a COMPLETE SET or/and a VARIETIES SET or a set by themselves.

The name of the set should have some meaning as to what the set is about. If the title of the set says CIRCULATION STRIKES in it, then the criteria should be coins that were meant for commerce, or at least manufactured the same way. Again, the 2005 Satin Finish coins were not meant for commerce, they were made by using chrome dies.

My view point, which I hope you will consider, the name of the set should not be misleading, if Satin Finish coins are to be allowed then the words CIRCULATION STRIKES should be removed from the title. I also hope you will consider that both Satin Finish and Business Strike coins belong in sets purporting to be COMPLETE SETS as these two types of coins are different and unique.

Currently PCGS is allowing an Either / Or solution in the CIRCULATION STRIKE SETS, which implies that both the Satin Finish and Business Strike coins are equal when in fact they are not. Also in the COMPLETE SETS, the collector is not allowed to enter both types of coins (SF and non-SF).

Thank you for your consideration,

Timothy A. Clough

I received the following reply:

<< Thanks for the input Timothy…We’re trying to figure it out…David >>

garsmith · January 29, 2006 7:33AM

SF are not Proof strikes so they have to be considered circulation strikes.

PCGS should allow the standard strike and satin finish designated coins in the circulation set; and they could start a varieties set that requires both the standard and satin finish coins.

Dan50 · January 29, 2006 9:43AM

Not so....
The SF should not be in a circulated coin set. But it should be included in a varieties set.
I agree it is not a proof coin, who said it was?
But is not a circulation strike coin.
It has been said that there are only two types of coins. Circulation strikes and proof. In the past that may have been true.
Now the SMS coins from 65 - 67 were made to replace the proofs, and indeed there were no proofs made for those years.
But starting in 2005 the SF coins have provided a third type coin.
We have the proof, circulation strike, and now the mint set satin finish coins.
They are no more of a circulation strike, than they are a proof.
The only fair thing to proof and circulation strike collectors, is to peovide a place for them.
Mint sets and a variety set is the only logical place for them.

This would protect both the PROOF and CIRCULATION set collectors, and let them continue to enjoy the fruit of their past, and future labors.

FullStepJeffs · January 29, 2006 8:30PM

<< Not so....
The SF should not be in a circulated coin set. But it should be included in a varieties set.
I agree it is not a proof coin, who said it was?
But is not a circulation strike coin.
It has been said that there are only two types of coins. Circulation strikes and proof. In the past that may have been true.
Now the SMS coins from 65 - 67 were made to replace the proofs, and indeed there were no proofs made for those years.
But starting in 2005 the SF coins have provided a third type coin.
We have the proof, circulation strike, and now the mint set satin finish coins.
They are no more of a circulation strike, than they are a proof.
The only fair thing to proof and circulation strike collectors, is to peovide a place for them.
Mint sets and a variety set is the only logical place for them.

This would protect both the PROOF and CIRCULATION set collectors, and let them continue to enjoy the fruit of their past, and future labors. >>

Couldn't say it any better than that, except PCGS keeps helping me make the decision to delete my registry set.

Peace

Steve

halfnut · January 29, 2006 9:28PM

Yes they belong somewere but not in a Circ Set.

jcping · January 29, 2006 11:20PM

> SF are not Proof strikes so they have to be considered circulation strikes.

halfnut · January 30, 2006 12:47AM

> SF are not Proof strikes so they have to be considered circulation strikes.

So what are the 65-67 SMS and 98 SMS Half coins considered as then - they are betweener's just like the SF coins but there are not allowed in a CIRC STRIKE set.

Dan

dbldie55 · January 30, 2006 12:55AM

Do you think the Sac $ set should only have 2-4 coins as well? (it was only released for circulation for a couple years).

You should have made this a poll so people could vote.

TAClough · January 30, 2006 1:29AM

<< SF are not Proof strikes so they have to be considered circulation strikes. >>

Dear Members,

I am not saying that the 2005 Satin Finish mint sets are proof coins or not. I would like to draw too your attention the Lingo link on PCGS's home page. PCGS defines PROOF DIES: Specially prepared dies, often sandblasted or acid-picked, that are used to strike Proof coins. Often, the fields are highly polished to a mirrorlike finish, while the recessed areas are left “rough”; on coins struck with such dies, the devices are frosted and contrast with highly reflective fields. Matte, Roman, and Satin Proof dies are not polished to a mirror-like finish.

The fact that the dies are "specially prepared Dies" and the last sentence of this definition is what I think needs to be questioned: Matte, Roman, and Satin Proof dies are not polished to a mirror-like finish.

If in fact, by definition, the 2005 Satin Finish mint set were struck by PROOF DIES, would they still belong in a set designated as CIRCULATION STRIKES?

Thank you for your comments sofar,

Tim

mas3387 · January 30, 2006 1:30AM

<< (it was only released for circulation for a couple years). >>

But the coins not "released" into circulation where Circulation Strikes - Right?

TAClough · January 30, 2006 2:10AM

<< Do you think the Sac $ set should only have 2-4 coins as well? (it was only released for circulation for a couple years). >>

<< You should have made this a poll so people could vote. >>

Dear Dbldie 55,

I have been collecting for nearly forty years, but am new to this forum. I am not sure how to set up a poll on this forum but agree that it would be a good idea. If you would like to set up a poll on this thread, please feel free to do so, I would appreciate it.

On the Sac Dollar set, in my humble opinion, the only thing that matters is were the coins struck in the same manor as coins released to the general public (weather they were actually released is irrelevant). The 2000(P) Goodacre Presentation and the 2000(D) Millennium were produced by a special process and in my humble opinion do not belong in a set purporting to be a set of circulation strike coins.

Thank you for your comments,

Tim

WaterSport · January 30, 2006 3:29AM

I feel they are not circulation strikes thus they should not be in the basic Circulation sets.

WS

Dan50 · January 31, 2006 4:34AM

<< << You should have made this a poll so people could vote. >> >>

MRCOINMAN has set up a poll in the past. Perhaps he would be kind enough to do it once more.

Fred can you help us out here?

dbldie55 · January 31, 2006 4:42AM

Regular issue mint set coins have always been allowed in the circulation strike sets.

Dan50 · January 31, 2006 5:45AM

<< Regular issue mint set coins have always been allowed in the circulation strike sets. >>

You are exactly right. But.. The new mint sets are made with special dies. And also, always in the past, this meant a variety coin.

TAClough · January 31, 2006 6:18AM

<< Regular issue mint set coins have always been allowed in the circulation strike sets. >>

Yes, my point percisely. Is the 2005 satin finish coins a regular issue mint set or are they a special mint set?

Again, I would go back to what PCGS gives for a definition on their Lingo link: Regular Issue - Term for the coins struck for commerce. These may be both Regular and Proof strikes of a regular issue. In addition, there can be die trials of regular issues. Even under this definition I see the phase Term for the coins struck for commerce.

There have been times in "modern years" that the mint did not issue regular mint sets, 1965 - 1967 the mint made SMS and in 1982 and 1983 the mint issued no sets period. Prior to 2005, with the exception of the SMS of 65-67, all coins issued in mint sets were of the same type, style and manufature of coins struck for commerce.

Not to sound like a broken record, but the 2005 satin finish mint set were produced by "specially prepared chrome plated dies", so should this disqualify them from a set purporting to be of circulation strikes (the 65-67 mint sets were struck by specially prepared dies and they are not in sets purporting to be of circulation strikes)? Why the double standard?

Thank you for your comments. I think it is good to hear both pros and cons to an issue along with their reasoning.

Tim

RBinTex · January 31, 2006 12:53PM

NO!

Boom · January 31, 2006 10:00PM

Well, it's obvious that you will get mixed responses. THE factor that would ultimately determine the answer you seek is whether or not

Satin Finishes are exclusive to 2005 US Mint sets. If they are found in normal everyday rolls then the answer must be that the SF is NOT a

variety. Conversely, if they are exclusive to Mint sets only then they COULD be deemed a variety.

JMHO.

ellewood · February 1, 2006 9:43AM

You know what, I can't wait for all of this to be over...to be honest. I have all the faith in the world that PCGS will do the right thing here...it's a big problem and I think they are taking the steps to work thru it. Nothing is going to happen overnight..it will take time. Instead of complaining about what they may and may not do...I am going to be productive...and go out, search for and nail down the real business strike versions of my 2005 lincolns!!!!! That way WHEN AND IF they decide to pull the SF coins OUT of the basic circ. sets...and require JUST the business strike proofs....I will be one step ahead of the game! If they decide NOT to...and leave it optional...then oh well. At least I know inside that I have BOTH types of coins in my possession. I could care less if someone is getting the same amount of "registry points" for their 68 or 69RD SF coin that I get with my 68 or 69RD business strike. It's all in personal satisfaction with me...not the registry point game!!!! JMHO.

clackamas · February 1, 2006 1:57PM

"Should Satin Finish Coins be allowed in sets of Circulation Strikes?"

NO

mas3387 · February 1, 2006 9:19PM

<< "Should Satin Finish Coins be allowed in sets of Circulation Strikes?" >>

<< NO >>

SF coins have been labeled with the additional # to the beginning of the PCGS Coin Number

The Washington Statehood Quarters, Circulation Strikes (1999-Present) is on it's 7th year of coins to include. Up until 2005 the same coin number was given to a coin weather it was from a mint set, roll, bag, pocket change

In 2004 2 Variety coins where discovered, Wisconsin D High Leaf and Low Leaf

Coin number for a non variety Wisconsin D found in mint sets, roll, bag, pocket change 14033

Coin number for a Wisconsin Low Leaf 814033

Coin number for a Wisconsin High Leaf 914033

The 2 WI Variety coins began with another # followed by the 14033

Variety coin #'s 814033 - 914033 ?

A Non-Satin Finish coin for 2005 follows suit with coin numbering as it had for the past 7 years
Example
2005 P CA 14034
2005 D CA 14035

2005 Satin finish coins start with a 9
Example
2005 P CA 914034
2005 D CA 914035

Which is the variety

Sac dollar set:
I see two coins not intended for general circulation
2000-P 9584
2000-P Goodacre 99584
2000-D 9585
2000-D Millennium 99585

Different coin number

separate slot for each

They are both required in the Sacagawea Dollars Circulation Strikes , (2000-present)

Either / OR ? We have two coin #'s for 2005 Require both or put the Variety,SF coins, in it's new set and leave the Circulation Strike Sets as they have been.

GRANDAM · February 1, 2006 10:49PM

Either OR, leave it as it is. Allow either one in the Circulation Strike Sets. There ain't that much difference in them anyway. Sure the SF are of higher quality as far as marks go but just to look at them ,,,,,,,,, finish wise the difference is VERY small!!!!

JMHO,,,,,, GrandAm

mas3387 · February 1, 2006 11:42PM

2005 SF coins have a new coin number starting with the Number 9

Must be a difference

dbldie55 · February 2, 2006 10:28AM

If I had to pull the mint set coins out of my sets, there would be nothing left but the 1982-83's.

Dan50 · February 2, 2006 1:26PM

If I had to pull the mint set coins out of my sets, there would be nothing left but the 1982-83's.

No, you can keep the 65-67's also.

clutsy · February 2, 2006 2:51PM

I'm trying to learn about coins so I pulled out some change. I found only one 2005 D penny with a mirror like finish the others all had what I would call a satin finish. What does a satin finish that you're talking about look like verses the circulation strike?

Should Satin Finish Coins be allowed in sets of Circulation Strikes?

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