Follow up to HBO quad cuts auto

baseballfanatic

This is from a hyper link sent out by Richard Simon:
January 23

(HOBBY ROCKED AT HBO REAL SPORTS REVELATION)

HBO’s Real sports brought the hobby/industry to new depths this past week with the revelation that one or more of the autographs on an Upper Deck card which sold for $85,000 recently may have been forged. The program however probably put eBay in the worst light as it looked at the memorabilia side of the ledger, focusing on autographs.



The focus of the program was the booming fake autograph field featuring a blind interview with a convicted criminal who worked with the infamous Greg Marino family. The Marino’s, who ran a forgery ring, were busted by the FBI several years ago. The interviewee, called Eddie, described eBay as the worst purveyor of fraudulent merchandise in the hobby. He also pointed to the card which Barry Scott of Guntown, Mississippi pulled from an Upper Deck Legendary Cuts pack at a store in Tupelo.



The card featured four cut autographs of Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner and Walter Johnson. Beckett Media helped facilitate the eBay auction which ended at $85,000. Beckett Grading Service graded the card and the autograph. Beckett does not authenticate signatures but grades them based on condition. The card only came with Upper Deck’s certification on the back as is normally the case.



The man being interviewed by Real Sports said he looked at a scan of the autograph and pointed out in his opinion the Babe Ruth autograph was the work of Greg Marino. Real Sports then sent a scan of the signature to PSA/DNA which did not give the autograph a passing grade. Real Sports took the situation to Upper Deck which it said, issued a statement saying the company stands behind its products.



TBR reached the owner of the card, Kevin Demitros, who had since seen the program. He actually got a call from Upper Deck days before it aired.



"When I heard from Upper Deck I was in shock,” Demitros told The Brill Report. “When we talked the man from Upper Deck didn't really go into detail other than to say there were reasons to believe that two of the signatures on the card could possibly be forgeries."



Demitros, who still has the card in his possession, said Upper Deck wanted to get the card back as quickly as possible so it could have it inspected by authenticators. The two sides are still discussing how exactly to handle this part of the equation. Demitros also says he asked from this point forward all communications take place in emails so he has written confirmation of all that is discussed.



"I have an appointment with my attorney on Monday just to protect my rights as a consumer," he said. "Upper Deck’s response on the HBO show was they do question the opinion of those alleging these are forged since they did not see the actual card and they want the card back so they plan to have these signatures looked at again."



Demitros, who works in the administrative department at the Milwaukee airport, is a collector of Upper Deck products and has been for some time. He is pleased the company told him they will make things right in the end.



"From the initial phone call they have been forward, they do stand by their products and they said they will make good on the card, or if not, make it better,” said Demitros. “So far there has been no substantive talk yet resolving the issue.”



He said he’s been playing phone tag with the president of Upper Deck so to date they’ve not been able to get the logistic matters straightened out. He is not sure where the road will lead.



"The problem I have now, and I put that in a letter to Upper Deck, I think just because of the huge shroud around this card doubting its authenticity, even if the authenticators, whoever we decide to use, prove otherwise I can honestly tell you the value of this particular card has been significantly damaged,” said the man who once called the card “the Holy Grail of collecting.” "I don't want this to be a he-said, she-said thing with Upper Deck. I really think it's premature until I talk with Upper Deck and my attorney to see what legal issues there are.”



One thing he does know is the man interviewed by Real Sports on the HBO show really brought into account the subjectivity of people selling sports autographs. Authenticating services, while based on technical aspects of signatures, really come down to opinions. Those opinions can vary greatly from authenticator to authenticator. As for Demitros he’s going to give Upper Deck the opportunity to find out the truth and make good on it from there.



“Upper Deck has been responsive on this and they have given me verbal assurance on this that they will take care of it,” Demitros told TBR. “In my collecting, I do hold Upper Deck in high regard as a player with professionalism and integrity in this business."



We also tried to contact Barry Scott who pulled the card and with the help of Beckett Media and eBay sold it to Demitros. Unable to reach him directly we had Anthony Patterson who manages the store in Tupelo where the card first surfaced, call him. Patterson called Scott who did not call us back after repeated attempts. Patterson had spoken to him earlier after he had seen the HBO story.



“I don’t think it ever entered either of our minds the autographs could be fake until this story came out,” he said. “People ask me all the time if autographed cards (from packs) are real and it’s hard for me to fathom coming from Upper Deck that they wouldn’t be. You’d think with autographs such as this you’d have everybody but your momma look at it to see if it was genuine.”



Meanwhile Demitros, who has never spoken to Scott, says he has not spoken to anyone at Beckett since HBO but did copy his contact there with the UD emails. Before this one is over, someone somewhere is going to have a lot of explaining to do.

Axtell

I'm not sure how ebay should be held liable or even in a negative light regarding this?

If items are independently certified (by UD, no less), or other items are sold with COAs, how exactly is ebay going to be seen negatively?

Let the buyer beware...if people want to blame ebay for facilitating a transaction, I'd ask that buyer to look inward for the blame.

julen23

e-bay facilitates the transaction yes, but they are not liable for the authenticity of what's being auctioned.

pass the peas
pass the peas
pass the peas like we used to do.....

UD looks like damn fools

Julen

tkd7

I do think that sometime in the not too distant future ebay will face some kind of lawsuit as the facilitator of sales.

I know that ebay likes to practice a hands off policy when it comes to transactions, but now as their business grows and they are advertising to the general public, I don't think it is out of the question that their role of bringing buyer to seller will be questioned. There are already cases of people bringing stolen goods to "third party ebay listing houses" for sale on ebay. Neither the third party or ebay wants to take responsibility, but pawn shops have typically been forced to show a proper chain of custody on goods. There is a movement to make the third party operators face the same requirements as pawn shops. I imagine ebay won't be far behind.

Southsider

I agree that ebay should and most likely, will, be forced to accept a greater amount of responsibility for much of the fraud taking place on their system. BUT, I don't think this transaction fits the bill. This wasn't some Basement Grading Company special, it was a (self) authenticated Upper Deck product. If you can't trust the "trusted" then there's no point. Ebay's greater responsibility should come into play on cracking down on the blatantly fake auctions that pop up routinely with stolen scans, one day auctions, private listings, etc.

WinPitcher

Is this the quad that was in a beckett holder to boot?

if so i would think they too are liable in some manner.




the sad thing here is that all 4 of those sigs could have been purchased for well less then 85k seperately.

UD and the others are in the business of creating instant rarities and that has never been good for the hobby.

I wonder how many "game used" cards are in fact game used?




Steve

ndleo

I'm not surprise that Upper Deck is involved in something this shady. However I really doubt that this will have much impact on the overall certified jersey and autograh card market. First the market for these cards isn't that hot, the actual prices a lot of jerseys and autos sell for is much lower than book. Second the autos involved are very specialized. It's not like an Upper Deck A-Rod autograph is in question, these autos are readily available.

The impact will be limited to all of the Legend cut autos out there.

phreakydancin

The only party I see at fault here is Upper Deck, because it is their certificate of authenticity.

eBay is merely an online venue that allows people to buy and sell. If a fake autograph was sold at a sportscard convention, would you hold the show organizer at fault? If you bought a faulty blender at a department store, would you go after the mall owner?

As for Beckett, they do not authenticate autographs. They only grade them, so I don't see how they could be liable, except for the revelation that, "Beckett Media helped facilitate the eBay auction which ended at $85,000." I don't know exactly what that facilitation entailed, but the fact that the card is in a BGS slab means nothing, IMO.

fsjeter

<<As for Beckett, they do not authenticate autographs. They only grade them, so I don't see how they could be liable, except for the revelation that, "Beckett Media helped facilitate the eBay auction which ended at $85,000." I don't know exactly what that facilitation entailed, but the fact that the card is in a BGS slab means nothing, IMO.

I agree with most of this. I just feel that if you are going to slab a card and give it two grades, one for the card and one for the signatures on the card, then you have a responsibility to make sure the signatures are real. That should factor in to the grade. If it doesn't, then collectors shouldn't put any weight or trust behind that grade of "BGS 10" for the autos. Just my opinion!

Scott

baseballfanatic

eBay is merely an online venue that allows people to buy and sell

I'm really getting sick of this one.
When does Ebay start to become responible for allowing scams and scammers to flourish and bring in hundreds of thousands of dollars?
They allow sellers to get away with it
They allow bidders to get away with it
They hide behind a blanket of "buyer beware"
That works at the flea market, but not for a billion dollar company that hides behind "help" buttons on the web and has members answer questions for other members.
This rant is entirely OT, but I am getting tired of scam after scam being allowed to flourish on the web while Ebay and Paypal just take a cut off of every transaction and turn a blind eye to any problem. I don't want to hear how low the percentages are that they charge, because if Mastro or LeLands or any other major auction house worked with such a volume of numbers, thier juice would be in line with Ebays.....

GOODLIEU

This is the info direct from Bekett on their Authenticated Autograph Grading Service.
Certified Autograph Cards

Beckett Grading Services will grade cards with "certified autographs".
That is, cards issued by major manufacturers that carry additional design
elements indicating the manufacturer has certified the autograph of the card.
The autograph itself will not be authenticated.



In grading the autograph itself on a card, the key feature being examined is
the production quality and clarity of the signature (and other after-market
ink, such as hand serial-numbering or inscriptions). This does not take into
account the legibility of the player’s autograph; rather, it involves aspects
such as bubbling, smearing, positioning/location, etc.



The autograph subgrade will stand alone and play no part in determining the
overall grade. Generally speaking, autograph flaws will only deduct from the
autograph grade. For example, a card that was signed and immediately smeared
will get a lower grade on the autograph, but the surface will not be affected.
An exception to this rule would be if the autograph flaw affects both the
signature quality and the card itself; for instance, a signed cut that creases
the surface and also smears the autograph. The best rule of thumb is that any
flaws related to the actual ink of the autograph will normally be deducted
from the autograph grade, while other flaws generally are taken into account
on the surface grade. When the signature is on a sticker or cut, and the
sticker/cut itself is creased (or torn, stained, etc.), this is taken into
account in the surface grade. Excess glue bleeding onto the cut is also
counted against surface. If the flaw also damages the autograph itself,
both the surface and autograph grade may be lowered.

iamthegreatcornholio

IMO, Upper Deck is solely liable here. I'd like to be a fly on the wall to see just how many corners they cut procuring these autos, jerseys, etc. Although, Beckett basically saying it's a mint forgery is pretty funny.

I totally agree with baseballfanatic regarding ebay. Scams are a crime, and as long as a they can profit off the scam through fees, they turn the other cheek. Is that not the definition of an accessory?!

One who incites, aids, or abets a lawbreaker in the commission of a crime but is not present at the time of the crime