MTG: Unlimited Sinkholes
tmmoose
Posts: 253 ✭✭
Can anyone tell me why there are 17 PSA 10 Black Lotus's and they seem to pop up on ebay every other month, and there are 13 PSA 10 sinkholes and I've never seen one on ebay?
I saw one on dacardworld about 9 months ago, but when they looked for it after I bought it, they couldn't find it!
Where are they all hiding? Are they breeding somewhere? Or am I going blind?
Michael
I saw one on dacardworld about 9 months ago, but when they looked for it after I bought it, they couldn't find it!
Where are they all hiding? Are they breeding somewhere? Or am I going blind?
Michael
0
Comments
I guess Jason must have like 3-4 of them with the 7 starter he opened !
Bastien
Still it seems odd that whoever has them is so keen to keep hold of them ... they don't seem to be listed in people's sets on the registry.
Unopened 1975 material
UL Magic the Gathering
I just got some grades back from the start of November, which were quite pleasing. (I guess you might have noticed your Time Vault is no longer the only PSA 10!)
It seems be a lot easier/quicker/cheaper to buy raw and grade yourself, rather than buying graded for unlimited as there is quite a lot of raw stuff around on ebay. I've picked up some stuff I'm waiting to arrive to see if any of its worth sending in..
Jason
Unopened 1975 material
UL Magic the Gathering
(The other one is all mine ... my precious! I couldn't part with it! lol)
Regards,
Jason
Unopened 1975 material
UL Magic the Gathering
Michael
Unopened 1975 material
UL Magic the Gathering
Doesn't that seem a bit extreme?
I guess I should start buying and selling unlimited at those kind of price multiples.
"spacebaby" on ebay
When you think they sell the Beta PSA 10 one for 275 USD ... It s a bit extreme ... I think it s a matter of love here !
Jason loved the timevault unlimited more than me
Bastien
I saw you both bidding on one on ebay and was amazed at the final bid. However, you'll find that as more and more unlimiteds get graded and the populations rise, further ones will not command the same prices. We both saw it happen with betas. Personally, I couldn't sell some of my beta 10's for what I paid. Yet, many of these were the first ones graded. As more showed up in the populations, each subsequent purchase price was usually lower than the previous one. Give it another year and there will be more psa 10 unlimited time vaults. Outside of you two, I am not sure there are any more collectors that will pay such a heavy premium for that card.
I truely do understand what motivated both of you to pay such a high price for that card. When I say that was an extreme price, take it as a backhanded compliment. The price I paid for a 1/1 psa 10 beta birds of paradise was "extreme" to say the least. So I get your point.
On another note, are you grading the unlimited set you picked up? How's that going?
"spacebaby" on ebay
Well at least i didn t paid it that much ... I mean my final bid was much higher than what i won the set for ...
I told the seller i was not happy and we agree he refund me 400 USD.
So i got the set for 3800 USD.
I will send the rare that look perfect to me to PSA this month. I will tell you what it get.
On the P9 i was hoping 2 get PSA 9-10 but they got PSA 8 ...
Now i don t anderstand why. One of them i can anderstand the other is perfect ...
I will send it again.
Some card got wear and get PSA 8 (i mean wear you can see in 1-2 sec looking not even close to the card).
The mox the got PSA 8 i looked at it for 10-20 minutes ... I can t see anything wrong with my eyes ... I don t anderstand ...
Jason got a Ruby from the starter he bought and the card graded PSA 8 also ...
You have an idea why ?
Bastien
I resent my Mox Ruby again and it got an 8 for the second time and my perfect emerald got a 9. I will resend those cards til the day I die to get the grades they deserve. My Ruby looks identical to my PSA10 one yet gets an 8. The PSA is subjective and I buy 10's because most people selling raw cards are liars when it comes to condition. I want my pristine cards to be 10's and 9's if they are off center too much because of the value they deserve. Psa is too subjective sometimes.
I bought $300 worth of UL rares on ebay 2 weeks back. I just received them and at least half have the 9-10 potential. All of the cards were genuinly unplayed and the entire lot will grade PSA 8+ once I send them in. (I am waiting for 50 cards to come back first).
Unopened 1975 material
UL Magic the Gathering
That's why people say you should buy the card and not the holder... as people say not all 10's are equal. (The same goes for 8's and 9's I guess!) - not exactly acheiving the objectives grading was set out acheived.
I suspect it's hard for a card to jump more than 1 grade though. I doubt something graded as a 8 would ever come back with a 10... there must be something they can see wrong with it for it to get an 8 rather than a 9. It might move up to a 9... but seems hard to believe it will jump up to a 10. I'm happy to be proved wrong though!
Ho hum.
Unopened 1975 material
UL Magic the Gathering
How do you get a card out of a PSA holder to resummit?
-jw
To crack a PSA slab, I usually just take a sharp knife and gently seperate the two halves of the slab in the corner by the label - wiggle and twist just a little to make a small space. Once you've done this, then just use a flat edge (like a butterknife) to go along the entire seam and gently crack it apart - it doesn't take too much to open a slab. While I am not a big proponent of the whole crack/resubmit game, I do like to "liberate" nice looking 8's for my album set or to get them autographed
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
thanks for the info. i just summited some unlimiteds and arabians that came out of the pack and got some surprising 8's. the arabians i can understand, but the unlimiteds look pristine. i'm not sure if it's worth the effort of resummiting. thanks.
Here are some of my techniques I use to evaluate cards for grading:
Once a card is slabbed it is sometimes very difficult to see what the flaw was that caused it to grade an 8 versus 9. Here is something to consider when looking at cards to grade. Most of us look at a card "face" on, i.e. the card is lying flat on a table viewed from above. When viewed at this angle the card can appear quite pristine. However, try viewing the card "edge" on, i.e. the card is perpendicular to the table. When viewed at this angle, tiny nicks on the edge of the card become much more apparent. This is especially true for any black bordered cards. White bordered cards like unlimited are a little more difficult to distinguish these nicks. When viewed at this angle, even white borderd cards show the nick more apparently. Looking down the edge of the card you can see where the perfect line of the card face or back deforms slightly from a very very small nicks. This is something the psa gradeders look at. Once slabbed, you can't view the card from this angle.
Two, even the smallest impression or crimp from the cutting of the card is an immediate 7 or 8 no matter what the rest of the card looks like. You all know what I am talking about. Whe the card was cut from the sheet, the cutting die can leave a very small indentation on the edge of the card. This crimp no matter how small or insignificant is a grade killer.
Three, surface continuity. When viewed straight on, it is almost impossible to distinguish any irregualrities with the surface sheen of the front and back of the card. I am not talking about obvious wear, but rather small dull spots in the sheen of the card. View the card at about a 30 degree angle with a bright light behind the card. Allow the light to reflect off the surface of the card like a mirror. Look for any areas on the front and BACK of the card where the sheen apprears duller than the rest. This causes a loss of grade value. Again, once slabbed you cant see this.
Finally, manufacurers flip. When these cards were cut from the sheet they were cut in squares and then randomized and stacked. Once stacked, they were forced through a die in the final shape of the card. This is how the corners were cut. As the dies used for this grew older and less sharp, they became less efficient in cutting these corners. Here is how that manifests. We have all seen where the very corner of the card lloks like ith has a slight flip up on the front of the card. When viewed from behind, the corner looks rounded toward the front. This flip if large enough can get you an 8 even if the rest of the card is perfect. Here's how it can be fixed. Place the card in a card saver 1 withouf a soft sleeve. Take a rounded edge like a foil leaf burnisher, animal tooth, spoon, sharpie cap, etc. and lightly rub (i.e. burnish) the corner of the card. Be careful not to use too much pressure as theis can deform the edge of the card. A quick burnishing can reduce or completely eliminate the manufacturer's flip. I simply consider this as completing the cutting process. Then place the card in a new soft sleeve within a new card saver 1.
On my last submission of over 200 cards, I only got 2 psa 8 grades. All the rest were 9's or 10's because I paid particular attention to the points above. If I notice something wrong, I simply don't submit the card. When grading common and uncommons getting a psa 8 grade simply looses money. On rares, it is often ok. I simply don't want psa 8 commons and uncommons, so I've learned how to avoid them.
Good luck, I hope this helps some of you get better grades.
"spacebaby" on ebay
"spacebaby" on ebay
"Take a rounded edge like a foil leaf burnisher, animal tooth, spoon, sharpie cap, etc. and lightly rub (i.e. burnish) the corner of the card"
You mean we place the other rounded edge card in the card saver with the card we want to correct or we place it outside the card saver 1 on the other card (so the 2 cards are separate by the card saver) and we lightly rub the 2 cards ?
Maby it s that on this mox. I noticed the corner fresh cut was little twisted but i have some PSA 10 little twister like this. I didn t consider it as default since it s the cuting process that make this more or less on the cards.
And i never tryed to correct it.
Bastien
I do get slightly paranoid about trying to get a card in and out of a card saver I without a sleeve though. I am fairly paranoid about doing it with a sleeve.
Tromagic - I'm not sure it's entirely your English ... I think of those 4 potential everyday household items I only recognise one of them:
a foil leaf burnisher
animal tooth
spoon
sharpie cap
At least, I'm assuming they are household objects as opposed to card names.
I wonder if we should be slightly worried that an animal tooth appears higher in the list of smooth blunt objects for fixing cards than a sppon. The first one I'm assuming is a specialist tool, but I'm not familar with the 4th one - so I'm assuming it's a US thing.
The idea is presumable to put the card into the Card Saver I to give some extra protection while your using a smooth blunt object to apply pressure to the slightly bent bit to straighten it out. You'll likely need something with a large surface area to too the pressing so you don't end up applying too much pressure in single spot and making an indentation - hence permanently undoing any good you might have done!
Thanks a lot for the info
Bastien
I used to do alot of gold leafing as art projects. This is a process in which a very thin sheet of gold is affixed to an object like paper or a picture frame. First you lay down a thin layer of a special glue, then place an incredibly thin sheet of metal (gold, silver, copper, etc) over it. The next step is to "burnish" the metal leaf. This where you take a very smooth rounded object and rub it softly across the surface. This presses the metal leaf into the adhesive and smooths out any air pockets. This is similar to the process of hanging wallpaper. Since the metal leaf is vey thin, the burnishing tool needs to be really smooth. So burnishing = rubbing lightly in a circular pattern.
As far as objects to burnish with, there are special tools made for this that can be obtained from just about any art store. When I used to do alot of medival calligraphy I used a wolf's tooth to stay within a period style. Michael, I'm sure you're familiar with the Book of Kells. These types of medival books often had gold and silver leaf used in the illustrations. Therfore a wolf's tooth was an appropriate period tool. However, in the modern world I have found a great substitute that was suggested by Len. This is the cap of a sharpie pen. It is smooth plastic and has a nice curve that prevents it from catching or biting into the edge of the card. That covers everything except the spoon.
Bastien, I suggest placing the card in the card saver 1 because the plactic from the card saver is thick enough to shield the card from direct pressure. Whether you use a soft sleeve or not is up to you. I find it works better without one. Anyway, once its in the card saver, take a spoon and gently rub the outise of the cardsaver over the corner of the card in a circular motion. This slight pressure will flatten out the "flip" and really make the corner nice.
Yes there are some cards that grade 10 that have a slight flip on the corners. All I can say is that I have seeen a great improvement in card grades since I started paying attention to this. I know from second hand information (not quite first hand) that the PSA graders consider this flip as a flaw. This is especially true with alpha cards where the flip is extensive. Believe me or not, either way, it does make a difference.
I hope this clarifies what I was talking about. Good luck.
"spacebaby" on ebay
I think LEN and Steven should team up to write a book on magic card grading. Ever since I got on this forum, the two named gentlemen have given me nothing but sage advice.
I also noticed we have a few collectors who came on board in the discussion. This is certainly great as we expand our little circle here.
-- Joe
Jason
Unopened 1975 material
UL Magic the Gathering
Spacebaby - thanks for the info - despite the slightly sarcastic comments I'm sure everyone is equally appreciative of the top tips on improving grades! I don't think sharpie pens have made it to this side of the pond. Are they a specific style of pen or a brand? I am familiar with the Book of Kells. Hopefully others are as well now.
Michael