I hate you Conder collectors

nicholasz219

Not really, but my bankroll certainly does.

First of what I am certain to be many purchases. I actually was bidding on a few more, but had to report to work in the interim and was sniped of course.

Can anyone please give me the name of the standard reference for these darned things? I need a book if I am going to start buying these things regularly.

I dunno, is this thing even a Conder token? I don't have the slightest idea what defines a Conder token and a plain token from England.

1837 Victoria Token

Nick

laurentyvan

I hate you Conder collectors Yeah, but you love what they collect and post. Hope you have a large bank account!

I like what you posted but I'm not sure it's a conder.

Steve27

From thecoppercorner.com:



"The first thing to cover in this section is the actual name of this token series. In Britain, they are known as 18th Century Provincial tokens. Collectors in the United States have adopted the name of one of the first catalogers of the series, one James Conder of Ipswich. James Conder put out his catalog in the late 18th century. His arrangement became the standard reference. James Atkins followed with an updated reference in 1892. Between 1910-1917 Richard Dalton and S. H. Hamer published — in sections — what has proven to be a masterwork. It has been updated through the years, with the latest printing being one done in 2004. The relatively small number of revisions, corrections, and additions made to “D&H” in comparison to the size of the work has been small, indeed. It is still the standard reference for the series.

In previous history sections the lack of small change, counterfeiting problems, and the reluctance of the British government to provide a good small coin for the masses to use has been discussed. A few other events made this lack of good small change far more important than it had ever been. Foremost of these events was the industrial revolution and its ramifications.

As society became industrialized — with the ability to manufacture machinery that made more manufacturing possible in other fields — the laborer saw an opportunity to leave the farm, and make a living wage for his family. There was thus a steady exodus from the provinces to mining or large manufacturing centers, where the need to pay wages was hampered by a lack of small coin. Some of the mines were located in out of the way areas, and there was literally no change available. In the cities, with more and more workers getting wages, more shops of all sorts were opened, bringing with them more jobs that needed wages to be paid. All of this began to accelerate at a rapid rate by the mid 1780’s.

George III had discontinued the making of copper coins in 1775. He found that they did not circulate. There were two main reasons. The huge number of counterfeit coins in circulation would be spent first — if the holder could get anyone to accept them. The nice, new, shiny penny would be saved — part of “Gresham’s Law”— that states that “Bad money drives the good money out.” The second reason they did not circulate was the counterfeiter — who would gather up the new issues, melt them down, and make 2 or 3 lightweight coppers out of one good one — thus doubling or tripling their money. Obviously, this latter only added to the counterfeits in circulation.

A third reason existed. The large cities often had enough — or even an abundance — of coin. That most of it was “bad” coin was a fact, but at least it existed. The small towns out in the “provinces” were often completely without coin. Money has a habit of flowing to the major trade centers, never to return.

In 1787, the Parys Mining Company, who mined copper ore — made a decision. They had the copper, and they had access to coining presses. Located in Anglesey, Wales, they were out of the mainstream. Little coin of any kind found its way there. They decided to make their own. Beginning in 1787, they produced Penny and Halfpenny tokens, of the correct weight, nice design, and a edge legend that stated they were payable in Regal funds by them. They were avidly accepted by the workers, and loved by the merchants. The mines themselves were important — there was now a supply of copper in Britain that had not existed before. Planchets for copper coins could now be made locally, at reasonable cost.

Manufacturers and artists climbed on the bandwagon — producing designs that were not possible until improvements in coining manufacture due to the industrial revolution made it so. The need for correct weight coin existed — and there were lots of people willing to fill the need.

The idea caught on, and by 1795 thousands of issues of tokens could be found. Due to the improvement in the way tokens could be manufactured, the commercial tokens were not only of the correct weight, but could be made with wonderful designs. About 95% of the tokens produced were halfpennies. Penny tokens were generally produced in small number, with a couple of notable exceptions.

These tokens not only caught on with the buying public and merchants, but also created a groundswell of collectors determined to get one of each.

The collecting craze expanded to the point of many issues being made for collectors only — at a premium cost. It also led some manufacturers to the manufacture of “mules”— pieces made by using the obverse of one token, and the reverse of another — to make additional collector pieces. These were considered to be “spurious” issues — designed to cheat the public and fool collectors.

As well, the tokens usually came with a lettered edge. On a correct piece, the edge gives information on the issuer, and where he could be found to refund the token into Regal coin. Varieties were made using incorrect edge markings, giving collectors one more thing to find — and the user often nowhere to go to redeem the pieces.

Others saw the advantage of making tokens, as well. Tokens were produced to advertise, espouse political views and social problems.

By 1795, the supply of these tokens — real ones, spurious pieces, and medalets — exceeded demand. The quality had deteriorated to the point where something had to be done. The government finally stepped in, and called a halt to the tokens, issuing copper Two penny and One penny coins in 1797.

For a ten year period extending from 1787-1797 almost the only “coins” in circulation in Britain were the Provincial, or “Conder” tokens. As they were designed and manufactured by the public, they were not limited by any rules or regulations. Taken as a group, the tokens form a history of a people in a way never seen before — or since!! Through them, we can look in on life in late 18th century Britain. We can see how they lived and thought through their commerce, politics, advertising, and even view their architecture. Avidly collected at the time of their issue, many of these tokens survive in wonderful condition, pieces of history that can be held in the hand. Collectors today find them perhaps even more fascinating than they did years ago. The study of these tokens has proven to be rewarding to many, and the stories behind the tokens and the era are exciting to discover."

laurentyvan

Hey, heck of a response! Steve27 is well informed...

nicholasz219

Steve,

Thanks for the info. I at least have a grasp of what I am getting into. I wasn't sure if this token was a Conder or not, but it was lumped in with a bunch of Conder tokens and happened to be the only token of the group that I bid on that I won.

I do like the variety and I see my bankroll drifting away as I pursue these as well.

Sigh.

Nick

Steve27

The standard reference: The Provincial Token-Coinage of the Eightteenth Century by Dalton and Hamer

The token you showed is NOT a Conder token.

nicholasz219

Steve,

Thanks again, but after reading the article you posted I also was able to gather that I did not have a Conder token in my possession.

I still like the piece and for the price I am not too concerned. I do regret not winning a Conder token from Southampton, but again, at work, outsniped.

Nick

Steve27

Outsniped, go here LINK

Sylvestius

<< <i>...As they were designed and manufactured by the public, they were not limited by any rules or regulations. Taken as a group, the tokens form a history of a people in a way never seen before — or since!! >>




You know i'm not sure that is the complete truth. Many regional tokens were issued in the mid-1600s in England just before the Charles II copper issue arrived in the 1670s. Making token coinage was apparently outlawed during that time.

To further supplement the info regarding the tokens issued at the end of the 18th century and into the 19th century in England several areas also issued silver token coinage. The one that springs immediately to mind are the c.1812 Sheffield shillings.

kuhli

<< <i>Steve,

Thanks again, but after reading the article you posted I also was able to gather that I did not have a Conder token in my possession.

I still like the piece and for the price I am not too concerned. I do regret not winning a Conder token from Southampton, but again, at work, outsniped.

Nick >>



Nick,

What you have is refered to as a "Hanover" token or "Cumberland Jack".

Here is some information I grabbed off this message board a couple years ago, that I keep handy.



<< <i>This is a "To Hanover" token.

While they were used as game counter pieces and may have seen some circulation as tokens,
these were also a political token.

When Queen Anne died in 1714, she did not have an heir to the throne. So a search through
the family tree was made to find the closest suitable heir to the throne. This turned out to be
George Louis great grandson of James I and King of Hanover, a German state. He became
George I of England but retained his title to Hanover as well as did his successors
George II, III. and IV. When George IV died though and the throne passed to Victoria
this caused a problem be cause under Hanoverian law a woman could not be ruler of the country.
The Hanoverian made a stink about it so Victoria abdicated the Thone of Hanover in favor of her
uncle. So the Kingship was sent back "To Hanover" as shown by the legend and King on the reverse
of the token. So the token is snub to Hanover that basicly says "you can have your king back we
will keep our queen." >>

Conder101

Your token is not a Conder token (conder tokens are 1787 - about 1797, there are a few later dated pieces from Middlesex and Staffordshire that date as late as 1803.). It is what is known as a "To Hanover" token and there are several different varieties. The To Hanover tokens are a political statement token. In 1837 Victoria assended to the British throne. Now Victoria was of the house of Hanover, the hereditory rulers of the Kingdom of Hanover in Germany. (George I had been King of Hanover before he became King of England.) George II, III, IV, and Wiliam IV were also all Kings of Hanover. When William died though there was a problem. Under Hanovarian law a woman could not inherit the crown. So when Victoria became Queen, the title of King of Hanover was inherited by her uncle and he was sent back to Hanover to rule there. So the tokens show Victoria Queen on side and her uncle on the reverse being sent off (exiled?) To Hanover. A kind of We will keep our queen , you can have him. type of sentiment.

As Steve27's post mentions the standard reference is 18th Century Provincial Token Coinage by Dalton & Hamer. It's a excellent book, but not cheap. About $185 although it can often be purchased for less on eBay. Seller Numislit often has then listed for auction.

Another book I would recommend is Notes on 18th Century Tokens by Arthur Waters It has a tremendous amount of information about who the varieous tokens were issued for, the diesinkers, manufacturers, and mintages. A great book but hard to find. It was published in 1954 by Spinks of London and has not been reprinted since then. There are four copies on the abesbooks website, one for $27.54 and the other three in the $61 to $65 range.

If you are going to be buying unattributed pieces I would also recommend Legend Index of English Conder Tokens Published in 2001, this book is now out of print and neither the printer or the distributor have copies available. (Only about 200 copies were printed) This book lists all the obverse and reverse inscriptions found on the English Conder tokens and lists for each all of the D&H numbers that that inscription is found on. You simply look up the inscriptions for each side and see what D&H numbers are common to both legends. In most cases it will narow your search down to just one or two varieties in a matter of just a minute or two. And you will know right where to go in D&H to nail it down to an exact attribution.

cosmicdebris

Another one bites the dust