Anybody see the "Real Sports" HBO special on autographs?

schr1st

Looks like Upper Deck has some explaining to do.

I didn't see the story (can't wait until it's on again!), but it appears that the Ruth and Johnson signatures pictured below may be forgeries:





The card sold for $85,000 recently on eBay through Beckett's eBay store on consignment. Since Beckett didn't authenticate the autographs, they are in the clear (and indeed I feel a bit bad for them, as they are going to be taking some misdirected heat for it), but Upper Deck is going to need to respond to the story and quick.

EagleEyeKid

I for one think this is absolutely hilarious!
However, I don't think the guy who paid 85K for the card
is happy at all right now. He will never be able to recoup that
money unless he sues UD because that card is now forever tainted.
I'm not an expert at all with autographs, but I like the "W" on Walter.
It has that let me slow down or stop look to it.

schr1st

From what I understand PSA/DNA came out looking good in the story. I can't wait to see it though.

stevek

Yes, I saw it. PSA and GAI received high praise for very effective counterfeit autograph detection.

schr1st

PSA/DNA may not be perfect, but I trust their opinions and have confidence in their willingess to "make good" when their mistakes are pointed out. Let's see if Upper Deck does the same for the collector that is now out $85K.

stevek

The story said that for sure two of the four autos here were fake. Ruth was one fake, I forget the other one. They were quite adament about the Ruth definitely being fake and to paraphrase, they said it wasn't even a good fake.

schr1st

They were saying the Johnson Was a fake. I've only had one Walter Johnson autograph, and it was a faded signature on a baseball, so I wouldn't be a good judge on his autograph. The "B" in the Babe Ruth looks a bit off.

baseballfanatic

PSA, GAI and Richard Simon came out smelling like roses. Other than the Upper Deck cuts card, the rest of the story was old hat. Frangiapani has been a laughing stock, along with any other type of COA for a long time. I believe Joe O called out a few other cuts not too long ago, which makes those 1 of 1 cuts a joke. Gee, the Upper Deck card got a 10 in the autograph department from the Beckett boys. What a suprise.....

Knuckles

The W and t have loops in the PSA/DNA examples and the Joh are quite different from the one on the upper deck card.. it does look really fishy. That's a shame.




Here are a bunch of PSA/DNA Walter Johnson examples.

gosteelers

I bet you that dude that pulled that card originally is glad he sold it when he did! I wonder what he netted from the whole deal?

fsjeter

<<Since Beckett didn't authenticate the autographs, they are in the clear (and indeed I feel a bit bad for them, as they are going to be taking some misdirected heat for it)

Doesn't the grade of "10" constitute some form authentication or are you saying they just took Upper Deck's word that they were real? Either way, shame on them for giving a grade of"10" on a fake auto.

Scott

yankeeno7

Yikes! I wish I would have seen that special. Will it be replayed?

I think you will see PSA/DNA and GAI begin to get a large influx of cut cards to authenticate from Upper Deck. And to be honest, I think I just may do that with a couple of cards that I have.

This stinks for the hobby. Way to go Upper Deck

ndleo

Upper Deck is a shady company. Always have been since day 1. Maybe Topps can use this as an opportunity to steal market share from Upper Deck. Say what you want their products, Topps still cares about the hobby.

fsjeter

Here is the schedule for that Real Sports episode for the rest of the week!

Scott

julen23

Man, that doesn't seem very probable to me today. Did UD just not have a good authenticating dep't or did they put $$$$ over authenticity?

Guess this kind of puts my shady/bad investments into proper perspective.



Julen

yankeeno7

Thanks Scott! I'll set my DVR!

fsjeter

No problem. Hmmm look at that, post #900. Whoo Hoo!!!

Scott

Stone193

Not the most informative piece - but definitely interesting.

Especially the take on the UD card!

I'm gonna be going over a lot of auto stuff I have over the next year or so.

mike

Knuckles

I think you will see PSA/DNA and GAI begin to get a large influx of cut cards to authenticate from Upper Deck. And to be honest, I think I just may do that with a couple of cards that I have.


I don't believe PSA/DNA will slab/authenticate signature cut cards made by card manufactures like upper deck. When I sent in the first lot of signature cut cards I made into PSA/DNA they wouldn't authenticate/slab them at first because they thought they were cards from large card manufacturer. Maybe they will though and they just thought I was crazy at the time for wanting to get something that was probably already authentic authenticated. *shrug*


-Garret

Knuckles

Upper Deck should take the card back.. purchase already authenticated PSA/DNA examples of the same players and make a new card for the guy using these autographs instead and maybe give a little more in product or something yet.

For all we know the buyer may have suspected the autograph of Babe Ruth and or the autograph of Johnson to be fake just to get publicity and maybe something huge from Upper Deck?

yankeeno7

Really? PSA/DNA won't authenticate cuts from card manufacturers? I have never sent any in but would have taken for granted that they did. An auto is an auto regardless of what media it is on. Would that have anything to do with not wanting to "step on any toes" or avoiding trouble with the manufacturers?

Knuckles

No idea.. maybe they will now enlight of this card.

stevek

I hate to sound too naive but you would think in this day and age, that something could be done, especially autographs on paper, to have some machine determine if the ink or pencil signature was recent or not. Perhaps they can do this, but possibly the expense of doing it would be too high for the marketplace.

yankeeno7

Also, this could be quite a hit to Beckett grading....at least for autographed cards. Who is going to trust them in determining authenticity?
Well, if PSA/DNA wont authenticate my UD cuts, hopefully GAI will. I know some don't care for GAI...but I have enough faith in them to send an auto for authentication.

Tabe

Beckett's autograph grading has nothing to do with authentication. It's merely a measure of the quality of the autograph (color, fading, etc) and not its authenticity.

Tabe

yankeeno7

Tells you how much I know about Beckett grading! LOL

How many will also now avoid purchasing UD products in fear that any of these old cut signatures are worthless? Maybe it won't deter anyone, especially with the new product...but the Legendary Cuts type product may take a hit?

tkd7

I think Beckett has to take some responsibility here. If you put your name on the flip, you are saying this card is authentic. To me, that includes the signatures.

I think it is funny that PSA/DNA is taking a hit on the Beckett boards for the Britney Spears yearbook but Beckett comes off clean on a sports card signed by 4 of baseball's biggest stars in history.

GOODLIEU

This problem falls squarely on the backs of Upper Deck and no one else. Beckett like PSA grades authenticated cards from the card companies without checking for authenticity. The PSA/ DNA service differs in that they authenticate signatures on cards etc. before the encase them so a card such as this one which would have had to be submitted through their Premium service to have been authenticated due to its value which would make sense to me if it was a old card with the players sigs but the owner of this card had every right to assume that the card was legit because it was from Upper Deck. I personally can't believe that Upper Deck did not get the best in the business to look at these cuts before they put them into production not to mention buying them in the first place. If anything this oversight on their part is going to send shock waves through the collecting community and end up hurting all of us in the long run. Shame on Upper Deck for not doing their homework on this one.

GOODLIEU

This one really bugs me because I love those Auto cards and was thinking that any one of us would have went into shock upon opening up a pack of Upper Deck cards and seeing a card such as this sitting in the middle of the pack. And after we came out of our state of shock the first thing anyone except the real avid collector would be thinking is "Cha-Ching" and to be honest you would have thought before this card that a plastic inner sleeve with a good screwdown holder and the closest phone in order to call one of the auction houses would be all you really would need to cash in on the lotto. The reason for that was easy than "Authenticated from the Card Company = Real Thing. Again without beating a dead horse this is Upper Decks screwup that in the long run is going to end up hurting everyone Them,Us,Grading Services,Other Card Company's and Reputable Autograph services. I just hope they straighten this mess up by getting that card out of circulation and compensating the parties involved and making the problem and their reaction to it as public as possible so their credibility and the hobby itself can be restored.

jrinck

Didn't someone from HBO come on this board a while back regarding research for a story?

Did anyone here get in contact with him?

I wonder where they found the Favre/Roethlisberger/Mantle dope. Wow, there really are people out there who will believe anything anyone tells them.

baseballfanatic

I wonder where they found the Favre/Roethlisberger/Mantle dope. Wow, there really are people out there who will believe anything anyone tells them. >>



I was thinking the same thing......

ndleo

Upper Deck probably bought the autograph from a well-known dealer or at an auction. The web will definitely catch a few more people. A story like this usually makes the mass media, so I fully expect UD to be in full spin mode.

I doubt they will admit the auto is fake. It would absolutely destroy their rep for cut vintage autos.

NBAFan

I've seen several fake autos in BGS holders. Like others have said, they only grade the overall appearance of the card, not authenticate the auto.

alinchitown

<< <i>Didn't someone from HBO come on this board a while back regarding research for a story? >>



Andrew Bennett the producer of the piece came on to several sites including my own and eBay in September looking for info on the state of Hobby in general. I spoke to him on several occasions about different issues concerning forged signatures and more specifcally on bad cardboard. Guess they opted to go with the autograph part of the story. They were shying away from the sellers of phoney cards angle becuase their legal department had issues with the dependability of the information about certain sellers.

Ullr

Knuckles, PSA/DNA will gladly take your $20 to authenticate a manufactured card.

Joe McCarthy

helionaut

When I saw that piece I thought that UD was going to be damaged irreparably but then there are 2 things that will probably make it OK.
1) The opinions on the quad auto were based on scans taken through a slab, posted on the net, and viewed through a computer monitor. This isn't the ideal situation for appraisal, no matter what the shape of the letters.
2) Who's going to force more info out of them? Beckett? Tuff Stuff? Collectors? If the buyer of the quad auto is as disturbed about it as we are, and as wealthy as his win would indicate, then perhaps he can sue UD and the vendors they got the cuts from in order to find out the authentication process, the provenance of the sigs, and just what is going on in their autograph department (re: Ed Plank, Henrietta Dandridge, etc.). Failing that, UD isn't going to do anything. Here it is 3 days later and not a peep to the press while NGs are grinding away on them.

tkd7

<< <i>Knuckles, PSA/DNA will gladly take your $20 to authenticate a manufactured card.

Joe McCarthy >>



That doesn't look like a PSA/DNA cert number to me. I think the card has just been encapsulated by PSA. Seems like the seller is using the wrong terminology in his description.

Stone193

BTW, is it just me or is that Frangiopani guy a real tool or what? I read his interview in SCD and he came across as arrogant and egotistical. Definitely the kind of guy who may be often wrong but never in doubt.


mike

Carew29

How funny---UD has a fraud prevention section on their website

sayheykid54

The Honus Wagner signature on the one card is also a forgery. The only autograph that appears to be legit is the Ty Cobb. $85,000 wasted!!!!!!

Snowball

I saw it this evening but saw only a portion of the story. Richard Simon's Sports mentioned it on their website and also other fake autographs.

TNTonPMS

Wow, that is a horrible Ruth , although I think whoever forged that , got a few through , for sure !

I had never seen this thread , probably before my time, but I have seen authenticated Ruth sigs that look very similar to that one .

Like this one , right off the top of my head .

TNTonPMS

And this one

TNTonPMS

What about this clowns double Ruth sigs complete on yellow Post it's