OT-ish... Is it just me?

Sylvestius · January 17, 2006 5:12AM

Or is this side of the forum having a Liteside invasion?

I check in here on and off and the more times goes on the more of this i'm seeing.

GRADES, GRADES, GRADES, GRADES...

Really puts me off reading alot of stuff. I'm always glad to read about people's latest acquisition but couldn't it be posted in a format more darkside friendly, i.e posting about the coin and talking about its other attributes and strong points other than its grade?

I'll not get started on all this RESUBMISSION/SLABBING business, my views on that are well known.

When did we stop talking about coins and start talking about numbers on bits of plastic?

satootoko · January 17, 2006 5:26AM

It is NOT just you my friend.

laurentyvan · January 17, 2006 5:46AM

Goofy grades, points envy, supercilious slab slang, registry rage, its all about where the coin is technically graded.

Really puts me off reading alot of stuff. I'm always glad to read about people's latest acquisition but couldn't it be posted in a format more darkside friendly, i.e posting about the coin and talking about its other attributes and strong points other than its grade?

Sylvestius, I couldn't agree more. Mentioning the grade as part of the coins attribution is just fine; leading off with the word "Grades" can be off-putting.

However, if that is the only way some lightside cum darksiders can feel comfortable posting, then something is better than nothing. However, this emphasis on micro-grading over all other attributes is threatening to make world coins kind of a homogenious mass.

ajaan · January 17, 2006 6:00AM

I don't mind the grade threads at all. It is the way world coins are going. Just ask Josh about how many more 'slabbed' coins are showing up at national coin shows.

If I see a thread title about something I'm not interested in, I don't read that thread. It's as simple as that. There is room for all here.

spinaker2000 · January 17, 2006 6:12AM

This topic has already been posted.

Cameron Keifer.

laurentyvan · January 17, 2006 6:15AM

There is room for all here.

Well of course there is.

That shouldn't prevent a distinguished member from voicing an opinion. Don, you've been part of this forum forever and one of its highlights. Do you remember when grades were acknowledged but the art, history, engraver and provenence of the coin were the highlights?

A world coin, MS63 at $50, silver and crown-sized and a hundred years old is a proper representative of what we enjoy. The same coin, micro-graded at MS66 or 67 at over $500 is a harsh pill to swallow. I just don't think the difference is worth it. Be honest, .can you really see the difference?

Coins should be sent in for attribution, authenticity, and a good solid grade indication; I say indication because there is so much diversity about grades on slabs that anyone can claim anything, and sellers are always hawking their wares: MS64, Lock at 65-come one, please.

I know, I know, naive point of view...

1jester · January 17, 2006 6:30AM

We're just a bit behind the times I suppose--sort of old-fashioned.

I remember a few years ago when there wasn't a single slabbed Darkside coin shown or talked about at all. Back then, we were asking the question, "When if ever will slabs become the rage on the Darkside?" Well, it appears to have happened.

ajaan · January 17, 2006 6:36AM

<< Be honest, .can you really see the difference? >>

No. I can't in most cases. The cost of high grades coins are a result of a free market. As long as there are people who will pay that high price, the price will stay high. Supply and demand. As simple as that. Right now there is the demand. Would I pay astronomical amounts for a coin in MS68 compared to MS65? No. If someone is willing, then good for them. To each his own.

Sylvestius · January 17, 2006 6:57AM

<< I don't mind the grade threads at all. It is the way world coins are going. Just ask Josh about how many more 'slabbed' coins are showing up at national coin shows. >>

Just proves the world is one big field full of sheep...

If slabbing is going to be the main stream everywhere then i think it's about time i finally quit the hobby. I've recently totally quit all post-medieval areas i was collecting, impending threat of slabbing was one reason for this. I don't like to think of grading as a science, i've always favoured grading as a subjective viewpoint. The great thing about medieval coinage is that no standard grading system ever devised will ever be able to cover the whole period, as what would book F for one issue would be practically a VF for another issue. Plus each coin is so individual that it's hard to collect on grade. Hammered coins are virtually always collected on eye and/or historic appeal.

I'm really not liking this commercialisation of the hobby. Currently you can get two collectors fighting over whether a coin is and MS65 or an MS66, but as Laurent says can anyone really tell the difference? I've known of collectors that have resubmitted coins that came back as MS65s because they thought it should be MS66. Yet when they unexpectedly get an MS67 (although they can't see why), they don't send it back again to see if it really is a 66! If the grading companies introduced MS66.5 there'd be collectors arguing about whether it was a .5 or a 66, where as only a few years previously they would never have though a grade such as that really needed.

I think there's alot of mugs out there willing to believe whatever the slab powers that be tell them is right for them, especially if there's a profit to be made along the way by resubmitting.

This isn't the hobby i remember joining! What happened to the good old days when people collected because of childhood memories of the coins they used to get, or because of aesthetic design, or because they like old stuff? Where's the love for the actual coins themselves gone?

Refrema · January 17, 2006 6:57AM

I am also put off by the search for the highest grade, or discussions of whether a coin is MS 65 or 66. I do have a couple hundred slabs, but most are US, and other than being a great protection for a coin, the actual grade of it does not interest me so much. I buy a coin because I like it and because it looks good to me. I store them in airtites for protection.

I started with PCGS several years ago, and I have not been on the Light Side forum for at least 2 years. I do skip topics about guessing grades or the latest grades that come in. If that is you’re interest, so be it. I would much rather read about the history of some coin or real information about coins.

It’s just my 2 cents worth.

Bob

Sylvestius · January 17, 2006 7:05AM

<< The cost of high grades coins are a result of a free market. >>

Another bad idea to thank the liberals of the enlightenment for.

1jester · January 17, 2006 7:42AM

The free market rocks.

To each his own.

I just prefer to see more meritorious collecting and discussions here, and we all can help by starting and contributing to threads in that direction.

Kurt4 · January 17, 2006 8:21AM

Grading coins has never interested me. I have some really nice coins and I know they are really nice. Having a TPG telling me "how" nice is just a waste of money for me. Money I could spend on more coins or books. To each their own. The "grade game" is something I will never play. The TPG's are laughing all the way to the bank.

tbirde56 · January 17, 2006 9:38AM

'I'VE GOT GRADES!!!'

G
VG
F
VF
XF
AU
UNC
PRF

and NO numbers!

My opinion: Display the COIN, not the slab! If anyone is interested in the grade, they'll ask.

Garneteye · January 17, 2006 9:59AM

<< . I've recently totally quit all post-medieval areas i was collecting, impending threat of slabbing was one reason for this. I don't like to think of grading as a science, i've always favoured grading as a subjective viewpoint. >>

Sounds like " if you won't play my way, I'll take my toys and go home"

What is wrong with collecting World Coins in slabs? I believe that I detect an elietst(sp) air

coinkat · January 17, 2006 10:29AM

<< The cost of high grades coins are a result of a free market. >>

Another bad idea to thank the liberals of the enlightenment for.

Sylvestius:

This is a great hobby with or without the plastic. Perhaps in recent months I am one that has become alittle too concerned about plastic, but I have shared my views and they are well known on this forum with respect to originality. I have made this an issue to the point where several members, especially on the other forum, that are tired of hearing about it... and that is okay. I do not expect collectors to completely view coins through my eyes or adopt my perspective, because they need to think for themselves... as I do.

If you have passion for coin collecting, don't blame the liberals...

for the free market ramifications, because this should be your hobby and no one should take that from you or anyone else.... end of discussion. Stick to standards that make collecting important to you and that is all that matters...

coinkat · January 17, 2006 10:34AM

BTW, part of this is collectors like to share stories about grades and pictures to learn and become better graders and buyers... so they develop better skills. Now all I need to do is figure out how to reduce te size of the pictures I have taken to fit and post here on the forum... honest... I am not trying to scare anyone here...

worldcoinguy · January 17, 2006 10:37AM

Good thread.

Slabs are here to stay, but I don't mind in the least. With the rise of exchanges like eBay and the such, I see it as a small form of insurance when buying coins remotely from unknown people. I don't have access to coin shows with good foreign coin selections, so the internet has been one of my only resources. I try not to get caught up in the grades (can't afford the gems so it is a moot point), but I do appreciate the authenticity that slabs provide. There are simply too many GOOD fakes out there, and I dread nothing more than being taken. Honestly I have trouble catching tooling also, so slabs are helping me learn the ropes. If you are not a fan of slabs, buy the coin for its merits and set it free.

WillieBoyd2 · January 17, 2006 10:57AM

I don't own any slabbed coins.
I like to handle and fondle my coins.

spinaker2000 · January 17, 2006 12:13PM

<< I don't own any slabbed coins.
I like to handle and fondle my coins. >>

coin molester!!

Avarel · January 17, 2006 12:33PM

I have no problem reading threads about grades, threads asking about grades, threads pondering grades, or any of the items others think may be foolishness. I've been here quite a while and each cycle of this conversation makes me laugh. Its evolved as have the participants and the members that come and go from the forum.

To each their own. For those that do, keep posting the grading threads. I'm always curious to see what folks are collecting and what they spend their hard earned money on to grade. Grading is a constant in this hobby or business; I spent considerable time looking at those threads trying to figure out for myself if I agree or not. IMHO it a great learning tool even if it is a list of grades and coins. Some of the coins slabbed in those lists I've never even heard of and the Krause gets opened. Its the wonder of the darkside...

Av

Sylvestius · January 17, 2006 6:41PM

<< 

<< . I've recently totally quit all post-medieval areas i was collecting, impending threat of slabbing was one reason for this. I don't like to think of grading as a science, i've always favoured grading as a subjective viewpoint. >>

Sounds like " if you won't play my way, I'll take my toys and go home"

What is wrong with collecting World Coins in slabs? I believe that I detect an elietst(sp) air

>>

Well i am known for throwing my rattle out of the pram on occasions, but in this instance it is not merely for the sake of it. Slabbing takes away most of the reasons why i collect coins. I get a buzz out of identifying coins to a certain mint, monarch or class (the scientist/archaeologist in me, i like wading through reference books trying to attribute coins). This aspect is lost if the slab says what it is on it! Buying ancient and hammered coins raw is a fantastic experience if you've never tried it. A note may come with it saying; Domitian, Denarius. It's up to you to find out when it was minted, where and what is represented on the reverse etc. Hammered coins frequently will say "Edward I Penny", that's you're lot, you then have to deduce the rest yourself from books. This to me is a real key point of why i collect.

I also enjoy holding the coin in my hand and feeling the history, which is pretty much the only reason why i do collect other than above. I do it to supplement my history reading. If the coin is slabbed (and i've had slabbed coins briefly), then i feel either like a child with a wrapped up present that's been told not to open it, or like i'm in a museum viewing the coin from the other side of a display case. As Jim Dale once said "kissing a woman wearing a veil is like sucking a toffee with the paper on".

If this is elitist, then yes i'm elitist.

1jester · January 17, 2006 7:42PM

I believe that slabbing doesn't preclude those aims of yours, Sylvestius, at least not completely. For a slabbed coin, you could still look up the attribution to see if what is written on the tomb is correct. And I too enjoy touching coins, but I'd never do that to an uncirculated coin, even if it's not slabbed (first rule of numismatics). For lower grade specimens, I do like to fondle them.

MadMarty · January 17, 2006 8:18PM

Wow, since I was the last one to post grades I never thought it would get everyones undies in a bunch!!! Why do I submit my darkside coins, one I like them in slabs. Two, I like to have a professional opinion of the grade. Three, I'm clumsy and drop things. Just as an FYI I have never sent a darkside coin back in for a regrade or cracked one out and resubmitted it. Something else, I have been having my darkside stuff slabbed since I started collecting! I have ANACS slabs from the early 90s! I just like them!!!

3Mark · January 17, 2006 9:39PM

<< Wow, since I was the last one to post grades I never thought it would get everyones undies in a bunch!!! Why do I submit my darkside coins, one I like them in slabs. Two, I like to have a professional opinion of the grade. Three, I'm clumsy and drop things. Just as an FYI I have never sent a darkside coin back in for a regrade or cracked one out and resubmitted it. Something else, I have been having my darkside stuff slabbed since I started collecting! I have ANACS slabs from the early 90s! I just like them!!! >>

Marty:

I agree with you. Since I have a lot of proof coins, most would become impaired proofs if they were not slabbed

And if you are going to sell coins, slabs are the way to go. Just look at any auction, whether it's ebay or one of the auctions houses, the best prices are for high numbered slabs. I didn't make it this way, it's just the way it is.3Mark

wybrit · January 17, 2006 9:53PM

1. I prefer my coins raw

2. That said, there are so many "optimistic" sellers overgrading on ebay. Slabs offer an increased chance of not getting a bum coin. I do place a great deal of trust in those who sell here, however, so raw is just as good as slabbed.

2. I only slab coins for the intent of selling. Quite frankly, they get a better price that way. Why wouldn't I want to maximize the $ when it is time to sell?

3. I'm not a big fan of "got grades" threads, but others like them and it would be hypocritical certainly on my part to call for an end to them. I think ajaan and avarel both have good points (I can't believe I'm writing that!!

). There are things to be learned from some of these threads regarding the approach a TPG takes to grading a specific type of coin, such as a 1902 matte proof.

4. Please don't take this as a "dis" Sylvestius, because in principle I do agree with you. Like you, I long for the simpler days, but sadly they will not return. Human beings by nature do not like change. It becomes necessary as a hobbyist not necessarily to agree with but to accept the changes and to adapt accordingly.

ajaan · January 17, 2006 10:00PM

<< I think ajaan and avarel both have good points >>

OMG! I didn't believe I would live long enough to see wybrit write that. It must be cold in hell right now.

wybrit · January 17, 2006 10:04PM

I didn't believe I would live long enough to see wybrit write that.

Given that you are older than dirt, I didn't either!

ajaan · January 17, 2006 10:05PM

OUCH!!!!!

SYRACUSIAN · January 17, 2006 10:24PM

Avarel summed it up really well. I might as well add a few comments too.

Sylvestius, a while ago I asked you if the internet had multiplied your buying sources and if I recall correctly the answer was practically no. You still prefer buying from local dealers, or the occasional coin show, or rarely from a trusted UK based ebay seller.Like most people said, to each his own.

You see, things are slightly different for me. The internet hasn't simply multiplied my sources, it has litterally changed my entire view of the hobby and this has a lot to do with increased so-called "sight unseen" buying (so-called because I see photos at least, pure sight unseen is not that) from sellers I didn't even know they existed a few years ago and increased selling as well, both of which thanks to slabs. So, at the end of the day, I enjoy the hobby much more now than before, and this doesn't mean that history or art took the back seat, at the contrary, I'm buying more books and read more articles than ever, when only a year ago I was about to exit the hobby for good.

As for micrograding, at least for the series I collect, I believe that I'm able to easily tell the difference between an MS63 and an MS65/66 coin.The more coins I send in, the more I educate myself on grading, or so it seems to me. It's the only way, other than my audio-video ANA course on grading and until I decide to spend a week or two in Colorado to follow the extremely interesting "advanced grading" course.

Anyway, no need for a rant on a subject that we tend to discuss every other month or so. Just my two drachmas on it.

OT-ish... Is it just me?

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