CLEARLY a (hypothetical) correctly graded ms64fs 1960-d nickel is worth $32,000+, so...
LincolnsRule
Posts: 1,738 ✭
why is pcgs getting away with paying less than one third its value?
JHF did a great and noble thing getting that coin off the market, and he deserves full compensation.
JHF did a great and noble thing getting that coin off the market, and he deserves full compensation.
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JHF did a great and noble thing getting that coin off the market, and he deserves full compensation. "
IMHO - Plain & simple - because no one involved with that particular coin was interested in PROFITING from PCGS' mistake - just correcting the mistake.
As a side note - a correctly graded 1960(d) Jeff in PCGS-MS64FS may or may not be worth $32,000 in todays market. $20,000 - probably. It appears much of the $32,000 original sales price was a single buyer chasing a reserve, best I know.
Wondercoin
so, I guess you have proven DH buys lunch for JHF should JHF ever hit Newport Beach and not vice versa.
Wondercoin
Fair market value as SOLEY defined by PCGS. Guess you're not a lawyer.
<< <i>Why penalize them unnecessarily, financially, for honoring their guarantee? >>
Um- because it's a GUARANTEE. As such, how could you call that a penalty. It's simply good business. As a side question, do they ask you to provide your purchase price with documentation for an overgraded coin. I honestly don't know since I never asked PCGS to make good on an overgraded coin. If so, why? What business is it of theirs? If you underpaid on the coin, would they give you less for it? If you overpaid I'm sure they wouldn't give you more than their determination of "fair market value".
I believe that the purpose of the guarantee is to protect buyers of PCGS coins, not to reward those who wish to engage in arbitrage and profit from PCGS's mistakes.
<< <i>I believe that the purpose of the guarantee is to protect buyers of PCGS coins, not to reward those who wish to engage in arbitrage and profit from PCGS's mistakes. >>
Arbitrage- good word! I had to look that one up. While I was in the dictionary, I also looked up the word "guarantee" to make sure I had its meaning right. I did, of course. It is not up to us to interpret the purpose of a guarantee. If a company chooses to build a reputation partly on a guarantee, then we shouldn't have a problem calling them on it once in a while. I understand PCGS's guarantee is one of the best, which is why they are the best. If PCGS has to have an arbitration hearing every time a question like this arises to determine if someone is willingly trying to make a profit on a "mistake" then they would wind up losing more money. The very meaning of "mistake" bugs me. If they made a "mistake" then they should pay, no questions asked, because their "mistakes" are GUARANTEED.
That sums it up nicely.
Wondercoin
<< <i>It's pretty clear dealers make more money off upgrading coins then they would on downgrading coins. It's pretty clear they like the grading inconsistency. I specifically asked one dealer recently why he didn't send an overgraded coin for downgrade, and his reply was "I didn't want to get on pcgs's bad side". >>
I don't know how the pops are viewed by most but you would think that downgrading a coin would make the upper graded coins appear that much more rare.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
PCGS has a very good guaranty compared to others in the bussiness. If, you are not satisfied with their guaranty it is very simple do not buy there coins. Also, there are other grading company's out there like PCI, SEGS, NCI, Numistrust ,PGS,SGS and others to name a few that you can offer you a different guaranty.
Also, if a 1959 Lincoln Cent certified PCGS Good 4 sells for $100,000. because someone paid that price it does not mean you can go buy a coin and pay $100,000. for any coin thinking PCGS will buy it back.
JHF did get full compensation
LincolnsRule what have you been smoking?
<< <i>how can anyone say a nationally advertised coin going through a major auctionhouse was not sold at current market value????? >>
sinin1, what if a coin sells for $10,000 under the circumstances above, but 5 minutes later the winning bidder is offered $12,000 (things like that do happen from time to time)? What is current fair market value - $10,000 or $12,000?
Yes, this coin with all the advertising could only fetch $11k, BUT, a hypothetical correctly graded coin might be worth $20,000 or $32,000. The question centers around whether the guaranty should "pay off" based upon the mistake at hand, or whether the guaranty pay off price should tie in with what the coin is truly worth if properly graded in the first place.
Of course, couldn't PCGS easily settle this debate once and for all by adding simple language to it guarantee to the effect that:
"the guarantee is to protect buyers of PCGS coins, not to reward those who wish to engage in arbitrage and profit from PCGS's mistakes"
Who out there would stop buying PCGS coins if they made that simple proclamation with respect to their guarantee?
Wondercoin
A 1960 d full step Jefferson nickel is non existant (unless it is fabricated after it was minted).How could there only be one of them?
Lincolns Rule -Coin dealers make the most money buying and selling and buying coins. Upgraders are generally not coin dealers.
What do you have against PCGS ?
Stewart
So like you say Stewart, that a red gem 26-s cent doesn't exist, and a full step 60-d nickel doesn't exist... I pretty much say an ms67rd S Lincoln from 1969-1974 doesn't exist. I've examined now 12 of them in hand (and seen several pictures of others) and not a single one would grade ms67 today (my 70-s ld is the best such S I've seen and it's graded ms66). The inconsistency just annoys me.
<< <i>"The inconsistency just annoys me." Is it an inconsistency or a difference of opinion when a coin receives a different grade. As long as humans are involved, there will be differences of opinion. As far as paying 1/3, it seems to me that they paid what it sold for at auction. Now the previous owner might have a beef had he tried to have it downgraded and was only offered $10k. >>
Or they decided not to downgrade it but of course, this never happened so this is all speculation! If they had, there's no reason to believe otherwise.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Thank you for your lovely and thoughtful post. But please let me clear up a few misperceptions ...
First and foremost: When you write I did a "great and noble thing," that makes me sound almost altruistic, and believe me, I don't have an altruistic, bone, hair, muscle, or even atom in my bod. I am selfish from the tippy, tippy tops of my hair to my toes.
When I bought that 1960-D Nickel, it was for my own self (and selfish) interest. The coin was an embarrassment to me. I wanted it buried in the bottom of my safety deposit box never to see the light of day again while I lived -- solely to enhance my pleasure in viewing my own Jefferson full stepper collection.
SecondPCGS is "Not getting away with paying less than one-third its value." When I bought the coin for $9kand change plus the juice, that established the fair market value of the coin. PCGS paid me that and I was really happy. Delighted. They did the right thing by me.
Third, If the previous owner had returned the 1960-D to PCGS for the same downgrade that I got, he would have had the right to expect his $32,000 back, because his winning established the value of the coin at that price at that time. Which is simply to say that the value of coins shifts over time. They don't usually shift so radically in such a short period, but this shows that they can.
So bottom line: I'm a selfish SOB ... PCGS did the right thing ... was not liable for a penny more than they paid ... and I'm tickled pink to have the most famous (infamous?) Jefferson nickel of all time for a puny thou or two.
Thanks again and ...
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
What a summation!! Now, that's GREAT COPY!!!!!!!
Wondercoin