1993 Refractor PSA 10s on eBay by the dozen

jmbkb4

DBH, I thought you'd beat me to the punch.

In any case, tonight and tomorrow night, the eBay seller wcsports1 is offering approximately 150 different 1993 Refractors in PSA 10 grade. This will drastically change the market forever and divide those of us that collect/buy these cards into the Pre-WCSports and Post-WCSports auction era.

Interesting stuff. I'll be curious to see what goes for what.

And I have a sneaking suspiction that jtcards is a shill for WCSports1. (Has bid on every card that ends tonight and hasn't had any activity at all on eBay for, literally, 1 year...)

WCSports1 auctions

WinPitcher

I thought JTcards was a buyer/seller of these cards? didn't a previous thread prove that out?


Steve

jmbkb4

You're probably right. In any case, his apparent high was $175 on every common player....

WinPitcher

his apparent high was $175 on every common player....


Is that good?


Steve

Stingray

Is there going to be a Bagwell in that group? I have always wanted a 93 Bagwell refractor.

Edit: Holy crap that is a lot of PSA 10s, and that Bagwell is out of my league. What was the stated production on these refractors anyways, something like 240 or so?


Stingray

kennylow

I collected as a kid in the 80s, and now collect vintage cards up to 1976....so please pardon my ignorance when I ask:

What is so special about the 1993 Finest Refractors? Were these the first Refractors and have a special meaning since they started a new type of card? Are these Refractors very popular type of cards today? Were these tough to find in PSA 10 condition?

Thanks in advance.

detroitfan2

I collected as a kid in the 80s, and now collect vintage cards up to 1976....so please pardon my ignorance when I ask:

What is so special about the 1993 Finest Refractors? Were these the first Refractors and have a special meaning since they started a new type of card? Are these Refractors very popular type of cards today? Were these tough to find in PSA 10 condition?

Thanks in advance.

kennylow, I was wondering the same thing. They certainly are nice looking cards. Is there a limited print run?

65nova

I asked this question yesterday in another thread, but, here it is again to some people who might be able to explain :


Is there a boatload of these 1993 Finest laying around waiting to be graded? The card store in my area just bought 5000 raw mint singles from his wholesale source. More and more of these things seem to be getting discovered. Has a large supply suddenly been discovered or something? These cards show up every day on ebay and other auction sites in PSA 9 and 10. How can they be collectible when new supplies of them keep showing up? If they are suddenly going to discover a traincar full of unopened cards, why can't it be 1960 Topps or something a little more desireable. I need to collect a 13 year old vintage set, probably a lot easier than my 1955 Bowman set.

gosteelers

5000 raw singles. Are you sure you are talking about '93 Finest Refractors?

WinPitcher

The 1993 Finest Refractor set officially ushered in the high-priced insert generation. With packs starting at the $7 range and eventually reaching as much as $75, the refractor inserts became the ultimate pull for collectors. The fact that they dropped only one per box, with a total production run of 250 of each card only further fueled the search for these elusive inserts. Even with the amazing technological advances that the hobby has seen since 1993, the refractor is still as much of a staple today as it was in 1993. (from psa)




now the disclaimer. A few guys tried to corner the market in a few players and a guy or 2 wound up with more then 250. this from what I have read and heard.

however with that said the creater of this thread has the number 3 set and will explain in more detail what is goin on. 5000 raw singles? I doubt it


Steve

Stingray

1993 was the first year for Topps Finest Baseball, I do not know if there has been any official numbers on production of these cards. I remember reading that it was one card per box and based on total production there were 241 of each refractor produced. Though there are some percieved cards that are harder to find, one being the Bagwell that I would like to own. That is all I remember.

Stingray

SoFLPhillyFan

So if jtcards is a shill he bought the Ripken for 2K plus.

What now?

Seller and buyer leave no feedback and the sale fades away? The seller still has to pay the final value fee.

With such a limited number of people very actively tracking these cards you would think the seller could not avoid being noticed when this cert. number pops up again for sale, even if he sells it under a different ID.

Keith

WinPitcher

From what i remm JTcards was heavy into buying these cards and bought them from many a different seller.


Steve

SoFLPhillyFan

Yeah. I am not in the 93 Refractor circle, but find it hard to believe that he would shill a 2K auction. It's self defeating. Pick a more manageable bid that will guarantee a higher bid from another buyer.

Then again some people get very greedy.

TNP777

he didn't shill the Ripken - it finished at $2,027. Yikes, what was the SMR on that?

He also grabbed the Cone at $76, McGwire at $660, Boggs at $270, Sosa at $480, Ken Hill at $175, Viola at $158.76, Smiley at $157.50.

member2956343 won quite a few of the cards that jtcards bid up to $175 - took 'em at $177.50. He's also dropping some serious coin on lots of others. lakertoughguy is also a big player on these cards...

Geordie

jmbkb4

Without getting into it too much, I was concerned about the whole wcsports1 as a seller. Email Phil Gold if you want details. Apparently, there wasn't anything too fishy going on here tonight. Ah, I'm just being paranoid. I'm sure all was on the up-and-up.

Regarding these cards, there has indeed been a tremendous flood on them recently, and they all seem to be coming out of Southern CA. Regarding the 5,000 raw copies, I highly doubt it. Probably weren't Refractors. Unless the guy had 100,000 to spend, that is.

These auctions will certainly change the eBay prices of the cards in the future.

gosteelers

<< <i>he didn't shill the Ripken - it finished at $2,027. Yikes, what was the SMR on that?

He also grabbed the Cone at $76, McGwire at $660, Boggs at $270, Sosa at $480, Ken Hill at $175, Viola at $158.76, Smiley at $157.50.

member2956343 won quite a few of the cards that jtcards bid up to $175 - took 'em at $177.50. He's also dropping some serious coin on lots of others. lakertoughguy is also a big player on these cards...

Geordie >>



This is the first time I ever saw lakertoughguy bid on '93 Refractors.

gosteelers

<< <i>he didn't shill the Ripken - it finished at $2,027. Yikes, what was the SMR on that?

He also grabbed the Cone at $76, McGwire at $660, Boggs at $270, Sosa at $480, Ken Hill at $175, Viola at $158.76, Smiley at $157.50.

member2956343 won quite a few of the cards that jtcards bid up to $175 - took 'em at $177.50. He's also dropping some serious coin on lots of others. lakertoughguy is also a big player on these cards...

Geordie >>



Geordie,
Unfortunately, PSA doesn't even have an SMR listing for the '93 Refractors. Seems odd, doesn't it? Anyway, the last PSA 10 Ripken went for over 4 grand. So, I guess this guy got a deal!

Mark

TNP777

good grief! over 4K? Well, maybe this guy will put up one of the 16 Brett Butlers that have been graded a "9". You crazy '93 refractor guys can have all those 10s!

Geordie

SDavid

Tuttle (jtcards) is always buying cards off ebay under one id or another. He isn't anybody's shill.

He probably knows someone who will pay more for these cards than what they went for on fleabay. Or he could be buying them to place them in a Superior auction, but I don't know if he's still with them.

jmbkb4

<< <i>This is the first time I ever saw lakertoughguy bid on '93 Refractors. >>


Before I started the thread, that guy hadn't bid yet. Mark, do you feel that dgsgraded is to bbcardco that lakertoughguy is to wcsports1?

nflhof

Back in 1991-1992 I sold plastic printing materials to a company called Signs and Glass Works in Vista CA(socal). This company printed/manufactured Beer/bar mirrors and where interested inprinting cards. Well they came up with the look of the Finest card and i think Topps bought it and started the Finest Brand later. If you look on the back of the early Chrome and Finest cards you can see SGW on the back. I am thinking maybe this is where these new Finest Refractors are coming from. Just a thought.

65nova

I think it was brought up before that cases were printed after they hit the stated amount. They stated in a thread here that they had cases moving out the back door at Topps. This would make sense because it is hard to believe that they keep "discovering" new product. One of these days PSA will grade it's 251th copy of a card that had a print run of 250. I mean how long can people keep grading something that was so limited. When you go to a card show, and a dealer has 10 copies of PSA 9 and 10 of Chad Curtis or Ken Hill sitting on the table. Talk about embarrassing for Topps.

pandrews

<< <i>One of these days PSA will grade it's 251th copy of a card that had a print run of 250. I mean how long can people keep grading something that was so limited. >>



yeah they will, because of resubmits if nothing else.. the pop report can show 1200 graded, that doesnt necessarily mean thats how many cards there are..

i can tell you for a fact, that the pop report on a few 1993 refractors is wrong..

DaBigHurt

I've stayed away from the 93 refractors because I've thought for the past two years, there's something fishy going on with the set.

All you need to know is that in the past two years, we've seen more than FIVE THOUSAND 1993 finest refractors dumped onto Ebay. We can speculate all we want about people who may have hoarded the set back in the day, but when I see that sort of influx in supply into ANY market, whether it's stock, comic books or 1999 bowman chrome, the bells go off.

Couple that with the fact that there's A LOT of suspicious bidding activity on the set, especially when it comes to one dealer - WCsports1 is also BBcardco - who has certain bidders who do nothing but bid on his refractors, the whole thing reeks.

If you're going to put together a set, my suggestion is buy raw. It's harder to gauge who needs what for their registry, and Weigle/Kent and company for the most part, don't buy raw and the shill bidders are less certain on these auctions, thus leave raw auctions alone.

Do your homework on the set. There is a wealth of information available on these boards, from JMB, Philg, Steelersfan, these people follow the auctions every week and have picked up trends in 93 ref bidding. If you go ballz out throwing money around, hoping to get the top spot in the registry, you'll lose a lot of money real fast.

FRNAllStar

I would Like To answer the question of why are 93 Refractors so IMPORTANT?


1. Awesome list of star players that encapsulates an ERA.
2. Very Rare.



Everything use to be new and modern. So it may be a good choice that in the future 93 refractors might be the collectible that encapsulates the era. Plus they have always been hard to acquire. So in the future I can only imagine that getting harder.

DaBigHurt

Forgive me if my posts are not very coherent (I'm trying to watch the Colts/Steelers and type at the same time).

The reason the refractors are so popular is because they were the first 'super premium' cards that were limited. The selection of players is outstanding and for many, it was a set that was impossible to put together back in the day without spending tens of thousands of dollars. In the mid 1990s, there was no hotter modern set for a period of 3-4 years. Then the bottom fell out, so to speak.

Around 2003, after years away from the 93 ref market, I began trying to buy them and they were truly hard to find. I would see a max of 4-5 refractors a week on Ebay and would often see familiar faces like Philg, Rangercalfas, Patmac bidding on the same stuff I wanted.

There's little doubt if you're looking for raw 1993 refs, it's a buyers market. Common singles can be had around $8-10, probably cheaper if you can get one of these wholesalers to sell you a bunch at a time. I'm probably going to start rebuying in the near future, but it'll definitely be for the fun of assemblying the set and not for the set registry.

The funniest part is, for 1993 finest refractors, the biggest difference between a PSA 10 and a raw refractor is not all that much! Don't take my word for it. Ask other ref connoisseurs!

jmbkb4

DBH is, in this case, exactly right. I got into the game only about 6M ago, and didn't know the history and, as such, was skeptical [incorrectly] of DBH. I've been able to buy a tremendous amount of raw cards from various eBay sellers, and they've graded really high. I'm currently averaging about 33% PSA 10's on my submissions from PSA for these cards. Check out submission #585005, zip 65203 for proof.

There is without questions something fishy going on in Southern CA in terms of several eBay sellers -- specifically: bbcardco (who has dgsgraded shill, among many others), wcsports (who has lakertoughguy shill, among possibly others), and gourstar (who I believe has found the "backdoor" for the cards and is in my opinion supplying the previous 2 sellers).

bbcardco has sold more refractors than wcsports1, so there is a much longer paper trail for bbcardco. Phil Gold recently provided me with what I feel is proof positive that bbcardco has been shilling up a storm on his 1993 refractors in PSA 9/10 grade. There are approximately 15 bidders who have won like 0-5% of bbcardco's auctions, have placed around 100 bids, and have placed 100% of their bids with bbcardco's 1993 Refractor auctions.

I think the strongest piece of evidence involving the counterfeiting of these cards (gosteelers on here has the copyright information) is that the same 172 cards keep being listed on eBay. It may be because (phil_gold can help here) these cards are being counterfeited by the sheet and the "missing" 17 cards never sold (Shane Mack, Pat Borders, Pat Henke, Orestes Destrade, Bernie Williams, Chad Curtis, etc.) because they are at corners/edges of pringing sheets. Just my theory on this one.

In any case, there is unquestionably something very fishy going on.

WinPitcher

I agree

Phil Gold, dabig and JMB are the three people that know this set inside and out.


Steve

mudflap02

I stopped working on this set about a year ago. I had around 20 cards, all commons. I submitted them all to PSA, got about 80%9's, 20% 8's. I then sold them because I just wasn't sure what to make of all the cards flooding the market. My cards were then cracked and resubmitted, and 3 or 4 of my 9s became 10s. That's right around the time I sort of soured on PSA, stopped buying graded cards, and refocused my collecting efforts.

Gourstar and bobbabo seemed to just have infinite supplies. I would think that with the profit to be made on these, it would be safe to assume that something fishy is going on, just hard to know exactly where to pin it.

jmbkb4

Hey there,

bobbabo in the East did sell a ton of refractors, but he had a finite amount and is now finished. bobbabo was legitimate, IMO. His cards looked as though they had been collected (they were in legitimately nm-mt condition and few were absolutely pristine).

Enter gourstar and the CA sellers (auctionhelper, wcsports1, bbcardco). There is something strange here. As soon as gourstar's cards enter the market, the % of 10's given out by PSA rises dramatically, by factors of 10.

Anyone who has bought from gourstar before will confirm that his cards look, literally, as though they came off the press. I'm talking ZERO surface scratches, relatively excellent centering, razor corners, etc.

gosteelers

Josh is right. When I used to buy from Bob Babo, there used to scratches galore on them. No offense to Babo, but these were tough to keep in great condition raw. Now, I get them from Gourstar, and they are absolutely pristine on the surface, save for some centering and corner ding issues. A fellow poster had a post earlier about SGW (Signs and Glassworks, Inc. of Vista, California). I guess they came up with the 'refractor' technology and Topps purchased/leased/used the patent to create and design refractor cards. Well, guess who lives in Vista, California...Gourstar...

gosteelers

Here's the link to the patent for refractor technology...

Refractors

Notice the timing of the patent, as well as the Description: Technical Field portion in the middle of the page.

Go Steelers!

gosteelers

Somebody mentioned the Bagwell 10. Well, it's gone now...

Bagwell PSA 10

DaBigHurt

JTcards was one of the more active card dealers on ebay before he went on hiatus. Take a look at his ebay feedback. He's received more than 34,000 positive feedbacks on ebay. Want to know how many feedbacks he's received from people who he BOUGHT items from under the ebay account Jtcards?

Zippo. none. Notta one.


Then he suddenly decides to bid on 130 '93 finest refractors auctions and ONLY from WCsports1 (which is also bbcardco) with this account?

Why would any dealer (especially a dealer with tremendous experience) get into the 1993 finest refractor market now and exclusively bid on the cards of just one seller?

You don't have to be a detective to figure out there's something really fishy going on here.

mudflap02

CSI: Internet Nerds

Good job team

jmbkb4

DBH,

That's what I was thinking too. Looks like JTCards is back today (yippee!!!) and has now maxed his bids at $170.

Funny, huh?

SDavid

JTcards was one of the more active card dealers on ebay

which is exactly why he probably already has a buyer in mind at a previously agreed to price for the cards in question. You don't complete that many transactions with registry collectors without making a few contacts, and there are a lot of buyers out there who don't want to bother with ebay.

I know for a fact that he's been steadily buying cards off ebay for the last year, mostly high-end stuff. Why he would suddenly use his old selling account to make purchases, I don't know, but if he was going to shill somebody's auctions, it would be pretty stupid to risk getting that account NARU'd when he could easily use a different account that has much less vested in it. As far as only buying psa 10 finest refractors from this seller, who else is offering them right now?

DaBigHurt

JMB, Seinbig and a few others are ones that come to mind.

As for Jtcards buying the refractors from someone who doesn't buy on Ebay? Quite frankly, I find that really hard to believe. We're not talking about assembling a T204 Ramlys set, where contacts, network of dealers, constantly scouring the big card shows across the country, etc... are needed to put together a top notch set.

Anyone interested in putting together a 1993 finest refractor set can do so easily just by purchasing off Ebay.

There have been more than 5,000 refractors put on the ebay in two years. The top spots in the registry are Kent, Weigle, JMB and others. Where do you think they've accumulated most of their refs?

pandrews

tuttle has several id's he used/uses..

DaBigHurt

WCsports/Bbcardco made a killing thanks to his "exclusive" bidders. For those who were disappointed by losing bids to Jtcards, don't fret. I have a feeling those exact same cards will be making their way back onto Ebay in the very near future. Just keep an eye out for those PSA serial numbers.

TNP777

I've been fascinated with these auctions since jmb brought them up. I'm astounded at the prices people are willing to pay for cards. My eyes literally popped wide open as I watched the Van Slyke jump from $107 to $609 within seconds - he went for more than the Yount which was the next one to close.

The seller will pull in in excess of $44,000. Of that, jtcards' shill bidding (yes, I'm convinced now) is directly responsible for a LOT of that total. member2956343 (man, that guy dropped some serious coin - in looking at his latest buys, he loves the 9s & 10s, doesn't he?) looks like the biggest investor, unless you count jtcards.

Geordie

DaBigHurt

Member2956343 is Richard Weigle, the #2 man on the Set Registry. Make no mistake about it. Weigle and Joe Kent (jk121579, the #1 man on the registry) are the targets of WCsports/Bbcardco in these auctions. They know damn well that these two will duke it out for the cards they want. WCsports/Bbcardco has a pretty good idea which cards they're going to bid heavy on, but for ones they're unsure of, JTcards and the other shill bidders will put in bids of around $175 or so to artificially manipulate the price.

It's like a big fishing expedition. On many of the auctions, WCsports/Bbcardo will reel in big on these "whales." If not, they'll still make a nice catch with the smaller players with the puffered prices. Cards that should only sell for $75 because there's no interest in them, go for $175 and up because JTcards jacked up the prices. When you count the dozens that were jacked up, that adds up to some serious change. On cards like Frank Thomas and others, where Jtcards actually won the auction, Wcsports/Bbcardco will record who is the 2nd highest bidder and put that card back up for sale later. When that card does come back up for auction, it'll be shilled appropriately, ensuring the 2nd highest bidder will win it the next time, at their highest bid.

It all stinks to high heaven.

jmbkb4

And don't forget auctionhelper's Jerry Lynch, who is as crooked as the rest of them.

I guarantee you he's already got the pictures of the cards pulled, so it will be very difficult to track cert. #s.

bbcardco is without question wcsports1.

JTCards, as I initially suspected, was certainly a shill for the auctions this weekend. He was probably paid a couple hundred to do it too (or given big-name player in PSA 10 )

kennylow

are these guys related in any way to Rock Bottom Sports?

TNP777

<< <i>I guarantee you he's already got the pictures of the cards pulled, so it will be very difficult to track cert. #s. >>

Well, for what it's worth, I'd already saved all the images. I thought it would be cool to have a virtual card collection, kind of like my friend Dan Austin over on OBC has done. I had started to black out all the certification numbers, but reversed all that. If they come back up for auction, I'd be happy to help check 'em out.

Geordie

gosteelers

Thanks, Geordie!

ldferg

keep up the work guys. it's good to know who to trust and not on the bay these days. more power to you.

WinPitcher

It all stinks to high heaven.


Looks like Dabig had been right all along.


Steve

jmbkb4

Steve,

I agree, and when I'm wrong, I'M WRONG.

sagard

So has anyone done a side by side comparison with the new refractors vs. known good old refractors?

Or is it simply believed they had uncut finest sheets and laid the original refractor coating over them and made them undetectable?