Auction agents and buying complete #1 sets

RegistryCoin

In a perfect world it would be nice to be able to visit all shows, look at all coins, and, one-by-one, find the best available improvements for one's coin collections. However, in this day in age, one's business interests, if not coin related, tend to take priority, leaving little time to attend all, if any coin shows.
Improvements to one's collections at top levels, cannot always be acquired one-by-one. At these levels, a purchase of an entire top set is the only way to improve one's set. Understandably, this is, perhaps, not an acceptable, or recommended means by those who have the ability to take the time to travel to all coin shows, but it does make sense to those who's work requires their presense.

monsterman

registrycoin

>>>Improvements to one's collections at top levels, cannot always be acquired one-by-one

you exactly correct......and is especially true when they are way behind and instantly catch up...and the only saving grace is their mistakes ( a bad coin here or there ) that are peppered here and there

another note is ...when it happens to a seasoned collector he has to go work his set ( aka resubmit it ) to get the upgrades he/she deserves in order to compete or stay on top ....where as the tpg get more fees for the same coins....again

monsterman

Parkekal

RegistryCoin

Hi MM. Some of what you say is true for some, however, I have tended to change my collecting habits during our period of gradeflation, so to include only top pops, ie proof and ms 70s, and only pcgs. This has limited my risk to gradeflation. I have learned from your free, very educational offerings on this forum how the game is played, between grades and grading services, but I have found it simpler to just play the 70s, and relieve myself of the constant attention needed to play the arbitrage.

Parkekal

Well said. My work prevents me from attending most shows. In fact, I have only had the opportunity to attend 1 major show in the last 3 years. Also, I have only purchased 1 complete set and it was not the Ikes..... it was Edson Santos proof kennedy collecition. That allowed me to compare his coins to my coins and pick the ones I liked best. It only upgraded 5 of my coins, but I ended up choosing 19 from his set to replace mine because I liked them better. I think the only collector that can really complain about those that buy (wether it is 1 coin or an entire set) is the collector that makes all of their own coins.... which I have tremendous respect for.

wondercoin

Mergers & acquisitions.... the American way!

Let's face it - very few collectors travel to nearly every show to lot view their own coins and bid at auction. There are a few and you run into them at nearly every show and nearly every auction room. And, kudos to those collectors - and what wonderful wives they must have to allow them to disappear 7-10 days out of every month. I think I read somewhere (or at least suggested) that dedicated coin collectors cheat on their wives far less than the average). For the other 95%+ of collectors out there, they either need to retain a competent auction agent to lot view and bid on coins, bid for coins "blind" and/or enter the field of "mergers and acquistions" to make great improvements to a collection. Nothing wrong with that and, if you think about it, there is little difference between having a trusted agent buy coins for you at auction one at a time vs. locking up a great collection of coins all at once. In both cases, the old fashioned "collecting" is not present. But, this is a brave new world we live in.

Wondercoin

RegistryCoin

The new world has changed "collecting". When I collected MS Roosies, Jeffs, Washingtons, Kennedys, etc, I loved to get mint sets, rolls and raw collections to "make my own coins". It was very satisfying, but finding real raw stuff these days is a crap shoot, and very difficult, to say the least. Now, to find improvements with saavy "upgrade" sharks in every auction room, one can see that a shot at upgrading from cherry picking a top collection is a real coup.

tradedollarnut

Buying complete sets to get the finest coins is a necessary evil if you're after the best ... it's no different than paying a huge premium to entice a collector to sell you the coins you need out of his set.

Buying a complete number one set and keeping it whole? Hmmm. I guess it'd be a nice trophy, but not much of a collecting accomplishment. But if you did that a dozen times, you'd have a heck of a collection!

RegistryCoin

A necessary evil, yes. But, to acquire those rarities, as you know TDN, one must have the mind set to take the advantage.

tradedollarnut

But, to acquire those rarities, as you know TDN, one must have the mind set to take the advantage.

I totally agree. Here's the story from my website of how the Seated Dollar set was built:

I started on this set in 2003 when I had the opportunity to purchase the Sterling Collection intact. This collection was nearly complete [missing only the 1870-S] and ranged from AU55 to MS64. Because Legend already had a customer [JFS] starting a top grade set of circulation strike coins, I intended to keep it mostly intact and upgrade it only to midrange unc, but alas - circumstances later arose that changed my direction. The Rudolf Collection came up for auction at Stacks a few months later. This was an amazing set with many beautiful coins. At the very same time, the Share Collection was available privately - this set consisted of a complete MS and Proof set, along with Patterns and Gobrechts. The Share Collection was not as high grade as the Rudolf Collection and the coins meshed with the Sterling Collection almost perfectly - keeping half of each set created a mid range uncirculated collection - with the exception of the 1870-S, which consisted of the Eliasberg AU50 specimen. In addition, it contained three coins that really struck my fancy - the finest known gem 1872-CC and 73-CC seated dollars, and a rare upgrade to the Trade Dollar set - the finest known 1878-CC Trade! Because of JFS's focus on the Rudolf Collection, I decided to purchase the Share Collection and to focus on only two specimens at auction [the Norweb 1845 and the Stack 1871-CC] as I knew this customer was going to be quite aggressive. This meant that I passed on a dream coin - the Stack 1870-S [the finest known example and the only unc]. True to his form, JFS bought up many of the choice unc coins from the Rudolf sale, including the 1870-S.... fortunately I was successful on the two I pursued for myself.

Many months followed with a coin here or there from auction - always in mid range uncirculated condition. I passed on several chances to buy gem specimens as I had no intention of starting down that path as long as JFS was intent on buying them all up for his set. After about 9 months, I was a bit frustrated and considered offering many of my expensive coins to JFS as they were head and shoulders above the rest of the set in value and if the set wasn't going to be improved then why have those coins? Fate intervened.

At the 2004 FUN show, Laura just happened to walk past David Akers' table. He had two of his personal seated dollars for sale - magnificent specimens [the MS66 1848 and 1854] at magnificent prices. Normally, she would have told me about them that evening when she updated me on how the show was going, but this time she called me from the table. Now, I had never seen those coins but I knew about them - David Akers' personal set was quite famous to dollar enthusiasts. Boy, was I excited! I told her to get the best price possible but not to leave the table without the coins ... a fortuitous act as unbeknownst to me Oliver Jung had eyes on the 1848 and was on his way back to the table to buy the coin! Not an hour later, the Fairfield 1849 was offered and purchased... another monumental coup! Later that evening, Laura stated JFS was considering selling his set and asked if I was interested. Funny how things worked out - I was ready to sell my key coins a day earlier and in the span of 24 hours not only picked up some once in a lifetime coins, but now was being offered all the coins I was forced to pass on earlier in the year! Amazing.

After purchasing the JFS's set, the Legend Collection was complete in uncirculated condition - the first seated dollar set to ever achieve this milestone. A few magnificent coins have been added in the time being, some from auction and some privately. The end result is a seated dollar set so magnificent in quality that has been entered in the PCGS Set Registry Hall of Fame.

wondercoin

TDN: Great story!

I'll never forget a few years ago when Registrycoin (Steve) spent a couple years reaching an exact tie with Steve Pierce for the #1 1938-64 MS Jeff nickel set. Steve had around a dozen early date Jeffs that Pierce did not have and Pierce had around a dozen late date coins that Steve did not have (incredible coins like the 1955(d) in PCGS-MS66FS that remain pop 1 to this day). The (2) of them had been fighting hard at keeping position. The day Steve reached the point where he exactly tied Pierce's set in the Registry (a day he had been working towards for several years) he contacted me and told me to offer Pierce his collection at a vey fair price. I said "what"?! Steve told me Pierce deserves his coins as Pierce was first on the scene and Steve had no interest in surpassing Pierce. I went to Pierce with Steve's (generous) offer and to my great surprise Pierce eserntially told me he would never think of denying Steve the #1 spot he worked so hard to achieve. He then offered Steve his collection at the same price!! Steve refused to better Pierce and Pierce refused to better Steve - only solution - BOTH SETS WERE COMBINED AND SOLD TO A THIRD PARTY! Today, JHF owns all of Steve and Pierce's coins (subject to any upgrading that took place since then). This is just one "good story" that comes out of the Registry game - it's not always about simply beating the other guy.

Wondercoin

RegistryCoin

"Great story." I had the same thought. Also, another of our most respected collectors, JHF, comes to mind, as he not only had the forthought to acquire the greatest Jeffs through his acquisitions of #1 sets only after a "lifetime" of building one-by-one, but also acquired the #1 Roosie set, which, interestingly enough, had been thoughtfully, and agonizingly, built one-by-one through an exhaustive search of rolls, mint sets and raw collections, primarily, by Wondercoin.

monsterman

registry

>>>>This has limited my risk to gradeflation. I have learned from your free, very educational offerings on this forum how the game is played, between grades and grading services,>>>>

thanks

>>>> but I have found it simpler to just play the 70s, and relieve myself of the constant attention needed to play the arbitrage


now that i see mitch has arrived i will address my only issue iwht this stategy....in a field with modern technology where as coins can be made very often " perfectly " aka 70...the 1st pop 70 will cost you big bucks...and the 2nd...and 3rd and so on...and the depth of the demand will determine the price ..in theory some 70 coins will eventually have a huge pop...10...50...100....but that will depend and vary from series to series

now it is my firm belief that with a pop of ten 70s in a series one can possibly find one that stands out over the rest...in theory im sure im right....but the registry does not account for that....much akin to my theory of there are 2500 gettysburgs and 16000 getysburgs in 67....however with the gettysburgs the 16000 will get to 68 i time which makes it a great buy ( albeit not to many ) once it is put into a 68 holder ( seeingas how 68s sell for 55,000 )

thus

in time i think coins will have both a technical grade and an eye apeal grade..like bonds ...ms67 / +++ vers a ms 67+....and it was started with the ngc star

thus if you do indeed have the to die for ms70....and the other guy has a ms 70 too...yours will be a ms70+++ and his will be a ms70+

again i will always believe the market is and has been for 15 years heavily leaning toward changing the old scale

of

40%..surface preservation
20% luster
20% strike
20% eye apeal

to 30% or 40% eye apeal and taking the points away from the others

thus i conclude if a person used wondercoin to sain coins through it is highly likely that the results would be several ms70+++ coins leaving the others to the ms70+ coins...and in time the ms70+++ needs to ...and will be rewarded as superior to the ms70+ coins....

all of which is not the case today.....yet!!

monsterman

Parkekal

I began the old fashioned way also.... taking coins to the bank to get rolls others had turned in. Years of doing that gained me many 90% complete sets in circulated and uncirculated coinage. Now that I am focused on proofs... well, I tired buying tons of proof sets and going through them and realized that I still needed to work and feed my family. So I help Mitch feed his family and he helps me find coins. It works.

RegistryCoin

Again, this may all be true, but, when you have a person, such as Wondercoin, who has, IN PERSON, seen or made almost all, if not all the 70 candidates, to do your pre-screening, a collector who has the #1 set not only has 70s, but the best 70s available of almost, if not all the 70s graded. All 70s are not the same. As a long time collector of the best, there may be a premium, but I happen to have the "bestest" of the best. Thanks again Mitch

wondercoin

I feel the love Parke and Steve.

Wondercoin

monsterman

regisrtycoin

>> a collector who has the #1 set not only has 70s, but the best 70s available of almost, if not all the 70s graded. All 70s are not the same. As a long time collector of the best, I happen to have the "bestest" of the best. Thanks again Mitch


i totally argee with you and i thought that my words reflected that

but....i have seen many sets built with many so so coins...yet these collectors think they are the best when infact they arent...i have seen collectors buy coins only by price and not the look....i know dealers know just where to to with coins they find....this one is great for the grade...call this guy aas he pays for quality....this coin ( while in the same grade is a dog...he says call that guy and sell it to him cheap

...i have seen pcgs come out and say "the #1 set of all time" and it was funny to those that know....its always evident when so so coins from these great faux sets keep hanging around the auction circuit and the bourse....sometimes for years...i see them all the time ...while on the other hand i never see the coins of great sets hanging around long....

monsterman

RegistryCoin

I had at least one good eye for coins, but no more - too old. I have learned that I don't have the best eye anymore, plain and simple. MM, you have the eye, God has blessed you. Dave, Mitch, Laura, etc are of the few that have the eye. With that said, those people deserve the percentage that gets us the coins that we desire.

Bear

I must commend all who have been kind enough to

participate in this most intriguing thread. The collections,

both great and small, take a great deal of perserverence,

skill and a fortuitous amount of good fortune. Well done all.