Kutasi Indian Head $10 set at Long Beach
Halfsense
Posts: 600 ✭✭✭
The breathtaking collection of Indian Head Eagles assembled by Los Angeles collector, John Kutasi, will be displayed by PCGS at the upcoming February 2006 Long Beach Coin, Stamp & Collectibles Expo.
Click here for link to news release about exhibit
-donn-
Click here for link to news release about exhibit
-donn-
"If it happens in numismatics, it's news to me....
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Comments
How come collectors can buy the finest known in two or three years ?
I am of the firm belief that one must collect for at least five or ten years building the finest set or one is deprived of numismatic knowledge and experience.I have waited more than 10 years for a particular coin in many series.
Stewart
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
Bruce - Are you saying that we collectors have become whores to all the Daddy - Big - Bucks ? If there is a better set out there other than Kutasi's,we will see a "Showdown" ?
Stewart
Clearly I lack the experience that you or Bruce or Dr. Duckor have had in decades of collecting but I must say that I am NO WANNABE! I have spent an inordinate amount of time studying 20th century gold and have handled 100's of coins during my brief numismatic voyage.
I started out by buying generic Saint Gaudens as I was familiar with them and understood that MS63 or better was what I should be buying. As I built up my quantities to a 100 pieces and more I acquired David Aker's book on 20th Century gold and started acquiring those dated coins that he advocated in his book figuring that the rarity factor would more than compensate for the additional dollars. This was in 2003.....I started essentially hoarding dates and trading my generic gold for the better dates....Dealers were happy to oblige me at the time and there were plenty of coins around.....
Then the market started to go higher and I saw the writing on the wall that this was a good thing so I became more aggressive and in January of 2004 at the FUN show Superior had a very nice presentation of better $5 Indians and I selectively acquired dates I didn't have and got close to finishing the set. In Feb of 2004 the Thomas Michaels sale of $10 Indians (billed as the finest ever) was offered by Stack's and I acquired my 1920-s in MS66, and about 5 other very difficult dates from the sale.....I was very apprehensive about spending $250k for one coin but the 1920-s is still one of my best purchases to date.....In June of that year I began to upgrade my Saints trading coins all along for dates I needed and buying rarities at the auctions....I pretty much finished with the Morse sale and have used a myriad of coin dealers without relying on any one individual....I have had very few bad experiences but have clearly made a few mistakes along the way.....I have upgraded coins and developed a pretty good eye for quality coins using eye appeal as the #1 factor and technical grading as secondary.....It has worked thus far....
That is pretty much my story and now have a substantial holding of these two series as I sold my $5 set in order to allow me to buy more Saints (they tend to get pricey)....
It has been fun but I still envy those of you that have had decades to collect....
As for the future, who knows? Maybe I will get some Saint Gaudens artifacts to go with the coins....
Regards!
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
I think it was your constant ranting and raving that I would benefit from buying the best available building a set and that it would give me closure eventually......instead of buying arbitrary key dates.....Of course at that time I never contemplated doing a Saint set but am glad I did!
Did you ever contemplate getting into the financial advisory business?
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
But that IS AN INTERESTING STORY!! Let's not bring up the Saints...remember what happened when you started that? Someone was NOT happy. I believe a "time-out" was in order then.
J.P. - I'm looking for a juicy story.
Do you consider yourself an investor,collector or investor/collector ?
stewart
The world is my forum Jay.And I do whatever it takes to get what I want when I want it.
BTW Do you have any juicy stories about Kutasi and coins ?
Stewart
Tell LMS about my stupidity and naivete with regard to the 1914-s $10 Indian in MS66 I had regraded.....That's about as juicy as it gets.......
I don't want to tell the story as it eats my heart out.....
I will, however, fill in blanks and make corrections as necessary....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
I am an investor, pure and simple.....Coins are an offshoot of my investing activities.....Prior to my current occupation as a leg breaker, I was in the same vocation as SG.....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
You said:
<< <i>It has been fun but I still envy those of you that have had decades to collect.... >>
John, thanks for the recognition of us oldies. Even those of us oldies who have not put together as much of a powerhouse of a set as yours do have something special in that we have been time travelers through the decades. But at the same time, I and others also look forward with the realization that we have already spent more years in this hobby than the years we have left!!!
Stewart...meet me at GuysWhoLoveGirlsGoneWild.com
There's some hot coeds there who LOVE coin guys.
Curiously, since you identify yourself as an investor, and given the significant appreciation of generic Saints, do you think you would have been better-off sticking with a large position in Generics rather than rarities (at least up until now)?
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
Clearly the RARE coin market has significant movements but the most important factor to me in my investments is LIQUIDITY which is lacking in the high end gold market......Try to offer my sets when the market is bleak and getting bleaker and I will be sorely disappointed.....Those days are not in the foreseeable future thank goodness but they are in the future SOMETIME and that is what is scary about RARE COINS.....You and Legend have clients where coins do not make up a significant part of their portfolio and could care less how they are doing from day to day.....I, on the other hand, do care as that was the main reason I started.....
Someday the move will be to trade the sets for generics thereby deferring gain and simultaneously increasing liquidity......
I believe the generic market is a must for any investor but unfortunately most people will not take the time to study ANY investment and will make bad choices....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
I must say, in my relatively short career in numismatics, I already have good stories about deals with a number of the participants in this thread. One of my favorite Stewart stories involves sending a then-recent Harvard grad (who shall remain nameless) into a blizzard to trek a couple miles along the otherwise-deserted sidewalks of Manhattan to complete a transaction on an expensive / time-sensitive deal.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
Speaking only for myself, I can assure you that even Pinnacle's "richest" customers DO care. Perhaps not on a day-to-day basis, but they still hold our advice and counsel to the highest scrutiny and expect effective results.
(Edited for a couple typo's).
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
The industry is vastly undercapitalized and with any serious money coming in this market will soar to heights not envisioned......As in everything, however, that will be the time to sell......
I am having a load of fun so far reagrdless of the outcome but clearly I am inthis to benefit in the long run.....not overnight.....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
With that in mind, then you are already WAY ahead of most collector-investors I encounter. Please know that I wish you tremendous success.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
PFFFFFFFFFFFT!! I thought you were the "rogue individual".
Todd - Why don't you mention that I kept reminding you that I was chasing that particular coin for 12 or more years.Patience and determination finally got me the coin.(and a wad of cash)I wasn't going to let a recent Harvard grad and a snow storm get in my way.
J.P. -I thought there were only Ball Breakers in the coin industry.It is a pleasant welcome that we now have a leg breaker. Stewart
Make sure you get some pictures at Long Beach, with the collection. And frame the document presented by PCGS, then post all for us to see.
Sorry I not be there in February to view your great set.
I too, wasn't going to let a Harvard guy and a snow storm get in the way of me getting a wad of cash!
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
No. But it was about that time when he started to seriously consider B-School applications.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
The time for generics may already be upon us. I suspect 2006 will be a banner year for the price of gold and hence generics will follow in step. Scott Travers, Mr. coin consumer protection, mentioned in Coin World last week (via the RNA ad) that common date MS65 Saints will be the winner in coins over the next 2-3 years. The unitiated into our world will be looking for a 1 oz. gold coin, in gem condition, with a strong proven history in bull markets. And it also now is the only real semi-affordable, 1 oz classic gold coin that is not
covered under PA2 reporting. MS64 Libs are in the same price range and are a bit scarcer but don't have the mass appeal that a the St. Gaudens design seems to inspire. In any case both of them have been in relatively close price proximity during good and bad markets. In 1988 and 1990 the Saints lead by up to 10%. Once the market fizzled the become essentially the same again. The Saints from the 1920's are also the same recogiizable design we use today for $50 1 oz coins...possibly that's a plus.
No one can be sure when the real estate bubble or even stock market may go "pop" (if at all) and suffer a 30% fall or more. If investors do descend upon the gold (and then coin market) they will be looking for generics and not rare dates as you have alluded to already. A derivatives break down could easily force a JPM or similar sized banking giant to its knees....and ultimately the economy.
roadrunner
I think a combined approach to coins with some generics and some rare coins works the best.....
I would like to see a strong gold close tomorrow to break this $550 stalemate.....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
Pretty much all those eggs are in one basket (rare date top pop gold). If you could flip a switch tommorrow and get MS65 saints, your market risk would not be that different imo. When the market tanks down the roads the rare date Indians and the Saints as well as generics will get toasted...if you have to sell that is. Nothing will be exempt unless you own major rarities. A few of those gold coins might do ok (1933 $10, 1921 and 1927-d Saints, etc.). But as TDN has stated before, the ultra rarities always seem to hang on. So trading up with a remainder of your set $$ (to a 94-s dime or 1804 dollar) might prove to be a play. And a portion into key date collector coins that have to date never really gone down (1799 cents, 1870-s half dime, 1854-s gold, 1794 dollars, 1802 half dime, 1853-0 NA half, to name but a few? Risky? Isn't everything!
You're right that you'd be looking at a lot of MS65 saints, thousands!
And you probably couldn't them w/o driving the price up, a lot. A nice problem to have I must add, and one that I don't have to worry about (lol).
But if you spread your wings over the entire gold market and only went after MS65 examples (Libs, Indians, Saints, etc.), you could put together a decent amount without raising too much suspicion. Say a Million dollars worth. That would only be a few hundred coins averaging $3000 apiece. You'd have to find a use for the other money some other way though (silver and gold bullion could, gold stocks, etc).
I'm sure you've spent much time already pondering the alternatives.
roadrunner
Not an easy choice because on the one hand having the sets of two of the most popular gold series is NOT a bad thing....But in order to have liquidity and be tied more to gold which is where I would want to be, then ultimately generics is the way to be.....Whether it's $20 Libs in MS63 or MS64 or whether its $20 Saints in MS65, I am not sure that matters so much....But when you are trying to sell a $20 1911 Saint in MS66 for $30-$40k it is not an easy sell when things are not good.....Right now its easy but I am not so naive in thinking it is always this easy....I have not lived through a down market in rare coins.....I have in rare stamps and it nearly wiped me out so I will NEVER make that mistake again!
There will be a day when it makes sense to switch into generics again...for me anyway....
Pinnacle and Legend have their clients that may care about the market but are not so dependent on it.....I would love to someday be in a position where I don't care about what the rare coin market is doing but I am not there yet.....
It has been easy to be successful in this kind of a market although I suppose there are those that still can't do it right.....
I believe todays action in gold confirms a major breakout and that will we see $600 way before we ever see $500 again!
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
For now you are in a nice slot.
Generics got hammered pretty good in the 1989-90 market as well.
64 Saints fell pretty quick from $1500 to $1000 and then to $675.
I owned a slew of them at $1000 only to see them get crunched some more. Ultimately sold them on the next rebound to $730. But they continued all the way down to about $425.
roadrunner
Let us see your coins the way they were mean to be. Naked and proud.
You don't need no stinkin' grading.
>>>I even do collections for some of your colleagues on bad checks.....
contrary to the people`s republic of california ....
in texas i take all bad checks...in fact i love bad checks..we ended the issue as in the auto repair biz ... when you write a dishonored check in texas you automatically sign over the title to your car...thus i hold a monthly auction.....a few years back some dip stick with a benz wrote me a bad 350 bad check....i sold it to a bounty hunter for 500......a nice 40% gain for my trouble...but the bounty hunter got the car and sold it for 55,000.....you can buy a coin or 2 with that
now it isnt that easy as you have to wait 10 days before the state will give you a new title...you have to
1) cert notify the owner
2) cert notify the lien holder
in 10 days after sending them the state will give you a new title
***in texas cert is considered received when sent to keep the "didnt get its" from claiming just that
#1 above he picked up his cert
#2 above the bank got it but the officer was on vaction and neglected to act on it`s first lien
**** bottomline....you write it make sure its good!!!!
so many newbies to our state are stunned at how we tcb here....not like other states where as the the DA is swamped and couldnt care less and the biz man always takes the hit!!!
*** note to file....taking 1000 bad checks a year ....90% are bad record keeping ( error in the check registry ) and are almost always taken care of timely by the payor and we do understand and give them reasonable latitude ( everyone gets 5 notices ...3 phone calls including ans. machines and 2 bank notices so evryone knows what they did ) ...but those account closed tick me off and i hammer them immediately....and they think they can elude dog the bounty hunter..yeah right!!!
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Sounds like the collection business is thriving, at least in bad checks.....I find collecting delinquencies in Texas to be more difficult as the state seems to be debtor friendly.....No wage garnishments and bank levies I understand? I wonder why?
In any case, debt collection pays my bills.....But it is commodity trading which allows me to buy the coins....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
my buddy here i fly with owns an agency and has 125 collectors...and he does quite well...if you ever need anything here in texas let me know
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Maybe Saints or $10 Indians????
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
>>>.....You should get him interested in coins!
ive been trying...giving him some nice pieces not too ecpensive to start him off as gifts
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set