OK....now about centering

TripleCrown

So the first question I have for you all is about centering. In theory, yes, I understand it but......
As many explanations as I've read I just can't grasp a way to guage the numbers (60/40, 70/30 etc) to figure out how to "measure" this myself. Is it an arbitrary estimation?, is there a device that's used to measure it?, and the kicker is, does this one number indicate both horizontal and vertical measurement or would they be two seperate mesurements (i.e. 60/40 top to bottom, 50/50 left to right) in the description. So to quote a line from a movie that I heard once
"O.K., explain this to me like I'm a 6 year old so I can REALLY understand it"

I really appreciate it guys
Thanks
NT

mikeschmidt

NT: They measure centering both from t/b and from l/r

Hobbyists do sell some lighted loupes and other optical devices that have centering measures already built in. Obvioulsy - the first thing to do is eyeball it. But you can measure it with either one of those eyepieces, or with a precise ruler. Finally - if you have a scan of a card from an auction or Ebay - you can measure the centering both ways by counting pixels and then dividing. E.G. There are 15 pixels of border on the left size and 25 pixels of border on the right side, so the card is thus 37/63

Does this help at all?
Marc

MorrellMan

What Marc said; also be sure to measure border width at the narrowest point. If there is any variance in the thickness of a border, the card centering is based on the worst scenerio, not the best.

pandrews

A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card.

these are two examples of virtually PERFECT centering..

Boopotts

I would never bother measuring centering when putting together cards for a submission. PSA doesn't do it, so why should we? It's based in eye appeal, and the centering standards PSA puts forth are just that- guidelines.

The best thing you can do is look at some 8 OC and 9 OC cards on Ebay and get a feel for what kind of centering standards are required for a particular grade.

Griffins

Glad I don't collect 10's, because I don't get what is perfect centering. The Lock looks high to me, while the Cardenas looks a bit too far to the left with a slight tilt clockwise.One prominent dealer told me that in his opinion the most overrated card is a 10, and I've got to agree. I"ll stick with raw postwar and 5's-7's pre war.
Triple Crown, look at a bunch of cards and you'll get a feel for it pretty quickly. Centering can be judged pretty easily from scans, corners and gloss are much tougher.
And welcome to the boards!

pandrews

<< <i>Glad I don't collect 10's, because I don't get what is perfect centering. >>



my post was sarcastic.. i think the centering on both of those is HIDEOUS for supposed 10's..

i agree with what boopots said, i never measure centering, eyeballing it is good enough for me, and i wouldve never submitted the Locke, and i wouldnt have expected anything higher than a 8 or maybe a 9 on the Cardenas..

Griffins

Sorry Perry, pre caffiene this morning. Guess we need that rolling eyes emoticon here.

pandrews

<< <i>Guess we need that rolling eyes emoticon here. >>



i shouldve included it in my post..

TripleCrown

Thanks guys,
All points well taken. Thanks especially Perry for the inclusion of the Locke and Cardenas scans. Thanks Griffins also for calling him on it and revealing the sarcasm because I was scratching my head a bit (they didn't look perfectly centered to me). My question stemmed more from a confusion about the many PSA cards that I've seen graded high with NO qualifiers mentioned that were terribly off center, and cards that were better centered than them and got the OC tag? Is it a "grader was in a bad mood that day" kind of crap shoot that causes this inconsistency?

Marc , thanks for the pixel formula but it made my head spin trying to figure out how you arrived at 37/63. Also wouldn't be able to do it on un-scanned cards?

NT

jerster

15/40 =

25/40 =

JW

WinPitcher

My question stemmed more from a confusion about the many PSA cards that I've seen graded high with NO qualifiers mentioned that were terribly off center,


In many cases submitters ask for no qualifiers and PSA will grade them accordingly.

Thus you see some PSA 7 cards that are off center that would quite possibly have been 9 OC and some terribly Off centered PSA 6's that do not have the qualifier


Like this for example:




Steve

mikeschmidt

NT:

A few points.

A) Each numerical grade at PSA has different standards in terms of centering. Believe it or not, a PSA 10 can have up to 40/60 centering, which means that one side has 50% more border than the other. It typically looks crappy - and many don't believe a card like that should get a PSA 10 grade. That being said - PSA does [not explicitly] apply different centering standards based upon eras. For cards pre-1970, a card that is close to 60/40 has a much better chance of getting a PSA 10 than a modern one. Modern cards almost always have to be 47/53 or better to get a GEM grade. So the question can be answered differently depending on what type of card is being submitted. Also - the width of the border has a definite eye-appeal impact. 1988 Topps card have HUGE white borders. 1954 Wilson Franks cards have exceptionally narrow borders.

You can submit a card to PSA with a "No Qualifiers" designation. Thus - if a card would normally get a PSA 9 O/C grade [e.g. it is a MINT card, but the borders are 66/34], it will instead be graded PSA 8 or PSA 7. Each grade has a different standard, though, so be careful. You could have PSA 9 o/c card that is closer to 90/10, but otherwise MINT. And, in a no qualifiers scenario, that card would get graded as only a 3 VG.

C) Grading is subjective - message boards often like to talk about mistakes - so keep that in mind.

D) Grading is subjective - so a grader's mood can definitely impact the final grade. There are significant rumours of "the Grader of Death", and some of our heavy submiters have huge data sets that essentially look at time periods whereby PSA was relatively tough or relatively lenient in its grading. Given enough of these swings over the last 15 years - there can be variability in grade. That said - there are definitely a subset of individuals who try to find cards in holders that they believe they can crack out, resubmit and get an upgrade on.

E) Sorry that my pixel comment made no sense. I'm a quant guy - so numbers always make sense to me, and I buy a lot based on scans - so I look at pixel counts often. So if you have a scan of the card - let's say that at its narrowest point - you count 6 pixels of border on the left side and 10 pixels of border on the right side. To get your centering - you take the 6 and divide it by 6+10, so 6/16, which is 37.5, and the other side is thus 62.5. So in that scenario, the card is approximately centered 37/63.

Best bet is to get yourself a good ruler!

Cheers

BugOnTheRug

TC,

Just to add to the psa 10 discussion:

There's always been controversy on centering, eye appeal, etc. concerning psa 10s. Cards like the Locke always make CU front page news because the centering is substandard in a lot of collectors eyes. However, color, registration, etc. factor into 10's also but seldom make news - it's always the centering that gets the publicity, and for valid reasoning as it's probably the first thing you notice.

That said, psa 10's should be treaded like any other grade when it comes to purchasing. There are 'hi end - low end' debates in every grade and psa 10's shouldn't be any exception. For every psa 10 Locke card, there are many, many, many more vintage psa 10 with centering that's dead-nuts on. But again, what people harp on is the less than perfect 10 centering.

In the end, just vote with your wallet. If the grade seems high to you, bid accordingly. If the grade seems low for the quality, bid accordingly.

Don't let any psa 10 bashing stand in your way obtaining them for your collection............................ Bill

WinPitcher

Marc

How does 40/60 centering have 50% more on one side?

I would have thought it meant 20%

was that a typo?

Steve

rbeaton

<< <i>
How does 40/60 centering have 50% more on one side?
>>



If one side has 40 pixels, then 50% of 40 is 20 => 40+20 = 60. So one side has 50% more than the other.

Robert

WinPitcher

ahhh thanks.............the key being then the other.


Steve

WC

Remember to take a glance at the back of the card....I once had a spectacular '57 Drysdale - that was just slightly off center on the front - but the back was way off - and it came back PSA 7OC. I should have asked for No-Qualifiers - cause I would have been happy with a 6 NQ.

pandrews

<< <i>Remember to take a glance at the back of the card....I once had a spectacular '57 Drysdale - that was just slightly off center on the front - but the back was way off - and it came back PSA 7OC. I should have asked for No-Qualifiers - cause I would have been happy with a 6 NQ. >>



thats unusual, because PSA allows up to 90/10 centering on the back for a PSA 9 and 75/25 for a PSA 10.. i received a PSA 9 on a 1976 Topps Reggie Jackson card that was AT LEAST 90/10 on the back..

mikeschmidt

<< <i>

<< <i>Remember to take a glance at the back of the card....I once had a spectacular '57 Drysdale - that was just slightly off center on the front - but the back was way off - and it came back PSA 7OC. I should have asked for No-Qualifiers - cause I would have been happy with a 6 NQ. >>



thats unusual, because PSA allows up to 90/10 centering on the back for a PSA 9 and 75/25 for a PSA 10.. i received a PSA 9 on a 1976 Topps Reggie Jackson card that was AT LEAST 90/10 on the back.. >>



At best - PSA is wildly inconsistent on back centering. Unless the card's back is obviously miscut - I don't think it ends up mattering much.

TripleCrown

Man, I don't know how to say this without sounding too kiss ass, but you all are GREAT !!!! Your positive, informative responses to my question have been REALLY helpful and exactly what I was looking for. It's the very reason I joined up with CU. Gotta get to work but I do have some follow up on 1 or 2 of your posts to this question which I'll hit you with later.

Thanks again
NT

envoy98

MikeSchmidt and BOTR-Great posts.

TripleCrown, if you wanted some great insight and words of wisdom from some of the most intelligent and knowledgeable people in the hobby, you've come to the right place.

Stingray

Centering for me is pretty easy for the year I collect:



I look a the bottom corner by the head shot, and that usually is what I look at first thing, if it is too skinny then the other borders are going to be too fat and viseversa.

Stingray