I can't find anyone who can identify this coin

millerbob

Any help would be appreciated. My dad got it in Korea around 1946. One person told him that it was "a token of friendship" from Emperor Hirohito. I had a young Japanese girl try to read it but she said it was an old form of Japanese, that she could not read. I am hoping that it is very valuable.

Thanks,
Bob

ajaan

calling sumnon . . .

P.S. welcome.

lordmarcovan

The characters don't look Japanese to me, but I don't read any Asian alphabets, so what would I know.

They look more Korean to me- wouldn't that make sense, considering where your dad got it?

Of course I dunno. If a young Japanese girl said it was an older form of Japanese, maybe it was.

ajaan

Are you sure Rob????

1jester

It's not Korean.

Is that possibly a spot on the reverse for an engraved message?

Welcome Bob!

gxseries

I'm quite sure it's Japanese but this is ancient text, probably over a few hundred years old, although the medal itself is pretty new. The reason why the text was that way, that in my best guess is that it is written only for scholars or only for the imperial family who is intelligent enough to read such texts.

Sorry but I can't help much either, except that I can only read the digits 11, and 10th date.

That's all I can manage - sorry.

shirohniichan

It's a medal from Taishoh 4, November 10 (reading it the Japanese way).

Man

Taisho 4 = 1915

harasha

How friggin' cool is that. Probably more exciting than me finding a Baccarat Pius XII paperweight at a very reasonable price at a local antique store, two weeks ago.

satootoko

According to the Beautiful Bride, the characters are in the style used for making personal seals, which are highly stylized from the ordinary Kanji (Chinese character) style.

There is one major anomoly in the area which is apparently the date November 10, 1915. The fourth character (reading from the right) would normally be "nen" (year), but on the medal the character "kisetsu" (season) has been used, so the line actually appears to read "Taisho yon kisetsu (2)" (Taisho 4 season). The Japanese seasons of the year start with spring, so winter is the fourth season, but she has no idea why that format would have been used.

The second line of the date appears to be "ju ichi gatsu ju toka (3)" which, as Shiroh said, translates to 11th month 10th day or November 10th, not just November 10. The "gatsu" (4) is highly distorted.

The best the BB can come up with for the upper inscription is that the top line (1) may be "On Tamawari ???", ceremonial gift of the nobility for some undecipherable event. She suggests finding a seal inscriber to read the next line.



BTW Emperor Hirohito was only 14 years old on the medal date, and was still six years away from becoming Prince Regent due to the illness of his father, the Taisho Emperor, so it's not too likely that the medal was a gift from him.

sumnom

Hang on, I'm working on it... it's a commemroative medal, something imperial. The emperor did something on 11/10/1915. Don't let the "season" throw you. That can be used for "year" if you want to be poetic... I'll be right back after I have a talk with some dictionaries.

sumnom

Can you provide a more focused image of the lower picture?

sumnom

This is a medal commemorating the birth of the youngest son of the Taisho Emperor, Prince Mikasa (also known as Su Casa)

I will tell all soon but there is a meal waiting to be eaten.

ajaan

Great job Josh. What's for breakfast?

sumnom

Dumpling soup, rice, kimchi, seaweed. Yum!

sumnom

Now then...


The top image:

The first line, reading right to left, is probably "Imperial birth." The first character is "okane no o" or "gozaimasu no go." In these examples the word is used as an honorific but in the case of the medal it refers to things imperial. I cannot read the next two characters but in context I am going guess "birth." There is a word for the birth of royalty that escapes me at the moment that is different from the ordinary word for birth. If I remember, I will post it.

As for the next line, the first two characters are "Great Ceremony." (Dairei in Japanese reading?) I cannot read the third character. The final two are "commemoration."

The date is indeed the tenth day of the eleventh month of the fourth year of Taisho. The character for "season" that was the cause of some consternation can also mean the end of a year. So we might translate it as the end of the fourth year of Taisho. I strongly suspect that the date is expressed in the lunar calendar, not solar. I know that the Japanese government adopted the solar calendar during the Meiji period but it would not surprise me if the lunar calendar might have still been used for events of such importance as a birth in the imperial household. When converted, the date becomes something along the lines of December 16, 1915. If Wikipedia is to be believed, Prince Mikasa was born on December 15. This is close enough for me to believe that this medal commerorates the birth of the prince.

Also, I wouldn't call the "month" character distorted, it's just another form of the character, a graphic variant, if you will.

On the other side, the four character phrase reads, "Boundless wealth and happiness." The two characters in the lower left hand corner are out of focus so I cannot even attempt to translate them.

This ID is provisional. I do not know that I am right. This is just my best guess based on the following:


1) This is something imperial.

2) It's a commemoration of some major felicitous event.

3) The date, when converted to the lunar calendar, matches quite closely with the prince's birth.


That's the best I can do for now. I will keep chewing on it anyway.

millerbob

This is very interesting. I really appreciate all of the help from you guys.
More pics

shirohniichan

I thought the character after "Dai Rei" was "Za", but I don't know ancient kanji. Too bad I don't have a good dictionary.

sumnom

The pics are getting better! The itty bitty print under the foliage identifies the mint. I can only read the first two characters (mint/minting). I would guess Osaka since that's were most, if not all Japanese coinage was minted.

Can you enlarge the small characters on the lower left hand side of the four character inscription?

millerbob

My camera is not a very good one. If this is not clear enough I will try again or use the SLR.
Thanks,
Carl

sumnom

"Za?" I thought it might be "jwa" in Korean reading, meaning a seat, a position, a throne but I don't know that that wold make sense in context.

sumnom

I think your camera is good enough. You were able to enlarge the little print on the rim, which is much smaller than the characters on the lower left of the four character phrase.

sumnom

Shiroh, what is the word for a royal or imperial birth?

millerbob

this?

millerbob

lordmarcovan

Well.

I'm glad somebody who knew what he was talkin' about finally showed up. It's all squigglies to me.

shirohniichan

<< <i>Shiroh, what is the word for a royal or imperial birth? >>



I'm sure it wouldn't be what it is for the rest of us-- "Goshussan iwai."

If someone would have asked me when I was writing my paper on Kagawa Toyohiko 15 years ago, I probably would have been able to read most of it. Most of the kyuu-kanji I knew have vanished into the unknown regions of the great void between my ears.

Wait until I get home and dig out one of my dictionaries.

millerbob

I used a microscope for each character

shirohniichan

Unfortunately I can't read the ones that are upside down (I'm not from China).

millerbob

Sorry about that.

sumnom

My goodness! I will see what I can do.

shirohniichan

OK, the inscription on the reverse reads "Houso Mukyou" (literally "Imperial Reign Without Boundary"). I don't know what "Kitsuu" means. "Ki" means "shine" and "tsuu" means pass, street, or way.

The small characters on the bottom of the reverse read "Zouheikyoku" and one character I can't distinguish. The zouheikyoku is the mint, so this is an official mint medal.

shirohniichan

If the inscsription at the top of the obverse reads "Go shi hai", it means it is an award from the Imperial family. "Taireizakinen" suggests to me that it is commemorating the enthronement of someone in the Imperial family.

Isn't November of 1915 when the Taishoh Emperpr was enthroned?

Here's a link to another medal: Taishoh medal

Here's another medal on eBay.

The reverse shows the three sacred Imperial treasures: the sword, the mirror and jewels.

sumnom

Shiro, you are probably correct. It is more likely that this is commemorates the enthronement. Why was he enthroned so late?

shirohniichan

<< <i>Shiro, you are probably correct. It is more likely that this is commemorates the enthronement. Why was he enthroned so late? >>



Why was he enthroned at all?

It's tradition to wait a few years. Showa Tennoh didn't get enthroned until 1928.

sumnom

I did not know that. It makes sense to wait three years, now that I think of it. A son is to mourn his father for three years, no? Kim Jungil did not formally take the reigns of government until three years after Kim Ilsung's death.

shirohniichan

<< <i>I did not know that. It makes sense to wait three years, now that I think of it. A son is to mourn his father for three years, no? Kim Jungil did not formally take the reigns of government until three years after Kim Ilsung's death. >>



Kim Jung Il is another one whose being given the reigns of government I question. There is something to be said for elections.

sumnom

Marius Jansen says of the Taisho Emperor:


"...he was unimportant in life and his death was irrelevant."

The Making of Modern Japan p. 495

sumnom

satootoko

<< <i>Isn't November of 1915 when the Taishoh Emperpr was enthroned? >>

Nope. July 30, 1912 is when he succeeded to the throne. Formal investiture, of course, came later.

sumnom

"Za?" I thought it might be "jwa" in Korean reading, meaning a seat, a position, a throne but I don't know that that wold make sense in context.


It would make sense if I had the context right!

Let's go with the enthronement medal for now. It is a more plausible explanation.

sumnom

Nope. July 30, 1912 is when he succeeded to the throne. Formal investiture, of course, came later.

I think that is what Shiro means.

shirohniichan

<< <i>Nope. July 30, 1912 is when he succeeded to the throne. Formal investiture, of course, came later.

I think that is what Shiro means. >>



Yes, the "sokui no rei" (coronation or enthronement ceremony) comes years after succession. In this case it was November of 1915.

millerbob

I appreciate the effort all of you have put into researching this coin. I have been wondering for many years what it was. Would this coin have any collector value. Do you think the Imperial Family would be interested in this coin.

Thank You.
Bob

shirohniichan

<< <i>I appreciate the effort all of you have put into researching this coin. I have been wondering for many years what it was. Would this coin have any collector value. Do you think the Imperial Family would be interested in this coin.

Thank You.
Bob >>



I'm not sure how the Japanese Mint did things, but with the British Mint bronze coins were usually released in larger volumes with silver and gold versions in smaller numbers. Sometimes large versions would be made as special presentation pieces. The Imperial Household Agency would probably only be interested in truly rare versions (e.g. presentation pieces struck in quantities of one or two).

While I don't know anything about this particular medal, it appears to be not quite so rare. Since it's small and bronze, it's probably a version that was sold to the public.

sumnom

Not to be nit-picky, but it's not a coin. It's a commemorative medal. I don't know how much it wold be worth, I am afraid. I don't think that it will be too valuable though. The silver Taisho enthronement medals in their original boxes seem to go for $100-200 but yours is neither silver nor in any sort of original packaging.

I just think it is an interesting piece. Thank you for sharing it with us. It was fun to try to identify it.

farthing

On eBay bronze medals of that general size usually sell in the $30-$50 range. However, you now have more information on this medal than most sellers on eBay have on their medals which should increase any interest. Obviously, the more buyers interested in Japanese material that would see the medal the more interest it would generate. The description of the medal and good pictures are all important. Listing the item in both Coins and Exonumia categories could also generate more interest.

sumnom

Have you tried going to www.zeno.ru?

mrfred

Awesome thread!!

Fascinating learning experience.

coinpictures

No doubt. This was a fun read!

BigAlan

Great thread!