Not happy right now with GAI...

MuckyMutt

I have gotten about 20 packs of OPC cars from the 70's the last couple weeks. All of them were "raw". No problems with any of them - well, one pack had the gum stuck pretty good to one card, which just happened to be a 78 Joe Morgan. Well, I just received my first GAI graded pack - a '72 OPC graded 8. The price was pretty decent on it. I have not opened such a crappy pack yet! It only had 7 cards in it (should be 8), and the gum had started to take on a life of it's own! Here's a scan of the Jim Palmer card that the gum has decided to bond with. There is going to be absolutely no separating the two. But the stains from the gum have bled throughout the pack to every single card! The McCovey was farthest from the gum and has the stain on the upper right corner. Luke Walker was in the middle of the pack. (I have decreased the brightness to better show the stains in the scan.) Is this type of condition to be expected when opening older packs? Should I expect this kind of result from a GAI graded pack?

Thanks for any comments.



<< <i> >>

Brian48

I don't think there's any way GAI would have known the condition of the cards inside the pack or how far the gum had deteriorated. It's my understanding that they only grade based on the external condition of the pack itself.

In regards to older packs, I've seen this type of damage before, but only with packs that came with "sugarless" gum or gum using some other type of sugar substitute that liquifies over time in warm environments. Pure "sugar" gum like the type made by Bazooka for Topps tend to crystalize and only damage the card that it has direct contact with.

Brian48

FYI, I'd soak the Palmer card in water and just let the bond between the gum and card dissolve. Sure, the card will have water damage now, but it's certainly better than peeling the gum off and tearing paper off the front.

WinPitcher

sorry mis read what you were saying.

sorry that happened



SD

MuckyMutt

Is it actually possible to only have 7 cards in an unopened pack?

I guess what bothers me the most is that I know there's a risk in buying raw unopened packs on the Bay - no guarantee that it's not been opened and searched. So I felt pretty good about buying the GAI pack and darn if it didn't get me!!

I'm not sure I can do anything to remove the gum from the Palmer card. It just feels so wrong to soak it in water (shudder).

Stone193

Mucky
Sorry to hear about your pull.

I have no experience with opening older wax.

I would like to hear from people who have opened a lot of older wax.

From what I can see...depending on the price of the pack...opening the stuff is a real crap shoot and if someone is in the "wax pack" collecting arena - they may say the packs are for buying, collecting and selling rather than opening?

I would like to hear what others have to say. I have a unopened 76 and 77OPC BB and have no interest in opening. Bought it many, many years ago and will probably eventually sell or trade the boxes.

Good luck on your next packs.
And I agree with others, if they inspected the pack - and the seal looked good - the only thing they can go on is the condition of the wrapper I would guess.

Happy New Year
mike

WinPitcher

possible to only have 7 cards in an unopened pack?

yes it is and was. however I would have hoped that the experts at gai would have maybe qualified that pack as we were just told that 1 of the criteria for authenticating was the amount of cards in a pack.

I guess the pack you have was graded before Oct 05?

steve

MuckyMutt

Thanks for the replies - and the opportunity to whine a little. Just discouraging open up a vintage pack and finding ruined cards.

BTW, since one of the criteria that GAI uses for grading is whether the gum is broken, why don't they also look for gum that is either "loose", as in it moves around - or if it is stuck to the card they could grade lower accordingly. I would think that gum that is stuck to the cards would represent a lower quality pack. JMHO...

lawnmowerman

<< <i>Is it actually possible to only have 7 cards in an unopened pack?

So I felt pretty good about buying the GAI pack and darn if it didn't get me!! >>

As far as the packs missing a card, it happened to me a few times when I was buying tons of 1981 Topps football. As far as the GAI issue, maybe you should try to ask this guy( I think he works at GAI).


chaz43

or better yet, him



I think you will be amazed at the similarity of their answers.

Matt

tennesseebanker

Mucky , I have opened quite a few older packs and have had the same if not a worse experience. Gai grades the condition of the pack itself and whether or not it has been tampered with, graded packs, in my opinion are usually for collecting as is, unopened. However, there are are a few gamblers out there like ourselves who just cant resist. I usually buy unopened stuff from BB Card Exchange (Steve Hart) ungraded, to open it. I have received some 25 to 30 year old boxes where the whole box was like the pack you busted! But, most of the time I pull some really nice stuff. usually from wax or rack and sometimes cello.(I have had bad luck with vending boxes) Usually the pack or boxes were stored at sometime in a fairly hot place which causes the gum to breakdown and the sugar to seep out of it down through the cards. Chalk it up to a learning experience or buy rack packs with no gum.
Thanx TB

Stone193

<< <i>why don't they also look for gum that is either "loose", as in it moves around - or if it is stuck to the card they could grade lower accordingly. >>


Good point Mucky.

Might be worth asking them?
mike

A761506

One thing I do not understand is why the card count is not listed on the flip of a graded pack. How difficult is it really to determine the proper card count if you establish proper weights for the pack? There should be very little variance from pack to pack of the same cards by the same company, and when using a precision scale, it should be simple to determine the card count of nearly any pack.

As far as the gum staining through, I think that falls along the lines of tough luck in the unopened pack world. Any unopened pack is a pure gamble. You're gambling that inside the pack is a key card, then on top of that, the corners & edges have not suffered wear over the years, plus it was printed on center and properly registered to begin with. You know in advance on a lot of packs that the card in contact with the gum is likely going to have a stain, the card on the back of the pack is likely to have some sort of damage from the seal, and everything else in between is a crap shoot.

MuckyMutt

Hey TB, yeah I just can't resist opening a few packs now and then. I hereby resolve though to only open ungraded packs - I'll leave the graded stuff to the pack collectors. I also just found a nearby card shop that has some reasonably priced packs from the 70's that are in nice condition. And I guess I better get used to finding some 'spoilers' now and then. I've really been lucky this month, because like I said, I've opened over 20 other packs and they've been nice condition cards (not counting the classic Topps centering). I guess I was getting spoiled.

julen23

Julen

Not at your misfortune by any means BTW, the other members input towards getting your problems fixed...

MuckyMutt

<< <i>

Julen

Not at your misfortune by any means BTW, the other members input towards getting your problems fixed... >>




Well, I am still waiting for Chaz to step in and help me out here...

Stone193

<< <i>

<< <i>

Julen

Not at your misfortune by any means BTW, the other members input towards getting your problems fixed... >>




Well, I am still waiting for Chaz to step in and help me out here... >>


Chaz is my hero!

MuckyMutt

Oh carp!! Now I have another dilemma. I notified the seller that the pack was lousy. Didn't say anything else - didn't ask for anything. Now the seller has responded and offered to refund the entire purchase price and half the shipping. You know, I really don't hold him responsible. I know there's a risk when opening a pack. But I really don't know how to respond to his offer. It's good to buy from a seller with 100% positive feedback, and this is one reason why. But I just don't feel right about it. What do you'all think? Split it 50/50 with him, maybe?

RipublicaninMass

<< <i>possible to only have 7 cards in an unopened pack?

yes it is and was. however I would have hoped that the experts at gai would have maybe qualified that pack as we were just told that 1 of the criteria for authenticating was the amount of cards in a pack.

I guess the pack you have was graded before Oct 05?

steve >>



Priceless

baseballfanatic

I wouldnt be able to go to sleep at night for cracking open a sealed GAI graded pack and then having the seller give me my money back. Unopened is always a crapshoot, and the seller did nothing wrong other than sell a graded and sealed product. Just my 2 cents.........

Carew29

So basicly any pack graded may look great on the outside and the cards could look like

WinPitcher

You know, I really don't hold him responsible.


Then what is the problem? email him and say that

then email gai and see if they will compensate you for authenticating a pack that was 1 card short.

Steve

zef204

I got burned on a 1970 fb cello. It came in the box and looked perfect. The back card was the Alderman facing out and ut was back to back with the OJ. I didn't see until I opened it that it was resealed. They didn't do to good of a job either.





When I contacted the seller about this, he said, "I can't believe you opened it." I told him that it may not have been a wise choice, but it was my choice and I couldn't believe the pack had been resealed. He felt so bad he sent me a box of 81 donruss. Yaaaay! I could have bought 10 of them for what I paid for that piece of crap. It actually did yeild a PSA 9 Spider Lockhart so I got a little of the money back.

rana

Some comments on this thread:

- GAI does consider gum condition, sticking, and size when grading/authenticating packs, not just the wrapper and seal
- GAI does sometimes list the card count on the label, especially if there are known variations, but not always
- It might be possible to weigh the pack to get the card count, but measuring height without the gum might be better in case there are multiple gum sizes for that pack release
- I've seen perfrectly legit packs with a card count +/- 1/2 cards from the usual amount. This alone does not make it a reseal. I've heard Mark Murphy say this as well.
- I don't think you can bash GAI for not grading the condition of the cards in a wax pack. That just isn't possible except for some rudimentary tricks like the gum condition, trying to peek through the wrapper, looking at the wrapper condition, etc. How could they possibly know the centering of internal cards or the printing quality on them.
- Some people have suggested putting gum/card connected frankensteins in the freezer to remove the gum. I personally doubt it works without paper loss, but feel free to try...

packCollector

<< <i>I got burned on a 1970 fb cello. It came in the box and looked perfect. The back card was the Alderman facing out and ut was back to back with the OJ. I didn't see until I opened it that it was resealed. They didn't do to good of a job either.
>>



zef, can you elaborate a little more? How did you know after the fact that the cello was resealed? why would you open it with the damage showing and what could you have been expecting. just trying to understand.

MuckyMutt

<< <i>Some comments on this thread:

- I've seen perfrectly legit packs with a card count +/- 1/2 cards from the usual amount. This alone does not make it a reseal. I've heard Mark Murphy say this as well.
- I don't think you can bash GAI for not grading the condition of the cards in a wax pack. That just isn't possible except for some rudimentary tricks like the gum condition, trying to peek through the wrapper, looking at the wrapper condition, etc. How could they possibly know the centering of internal cards or the printing quality on them. >>



Good to know that the card count can be off. So it was probably not searched and resealed. Good.

The reason I was upset with GAI is because I felt it was giving me some kind of assurance that I was buying a pack that was in "good" condition and was not resealed. Isn't that the original premise of having packs graded and authenticated? To tell the truth, when I cracked the pack out of the holder, I thought the condition of the pack was well below that of the raw packs I've been getting. After opening the pack and seeing the cards, I could then see evidence on the outside that this pack showed signs of having problems. I believe at some point, either before or after it had been graded, that the pack had been exposed to very warm conditions. Perhaps left on the dash of a car in the Texas sun for two days in the summer?

So the point about a GAI graded pack is that it offers no assurance whatsoever. Something can always happen after it was graded and slabbed that would affect the condition.



<< <i>You know, I really don't hold him responsible.


Then what is the problem? email him and say that >>



WinPitcher-
I also want to comment further on the seller's offer to refund. I stated that I don't hold him responsible for

<< <i>the condition >>

of the pack. That doesn't mean that he bears no responsibility for a poor product (which I still believe this is). Consider this scenario: Person A has a pack graded by GAI. It is in prime condition and receives a 9. Person A leaves the pack on his car dash in the Texas sun for a week. He realizes that this had a detrimental effect on the pack, so he decides to sell it off cheap. He sells it to person B, a dealer who is happy to get a good bargain on a graded pack so that he can turn it for a quick profit. Person C ends up buying the pack, opens it, and finds results like I did. I do not believe that person B should bear no risk whatsoever in this series of transactions. There is a reason he got the pack cheap and he bought it for resale. Along with opportunity for profit, there is risk of loss. Risk = responsibility. B was also a buyer at one point in the series of events. Why should he not share the risk? Also, if what you are saying is that a seller of graded material should never be responsible for the present condition of the item, then theoretically, if I buy another graded pack and notice similiar conditions on the pack, I could then resell it immediately and bear no responsibility? Or worse yet, leave a grade pack in the oven for a few hours and then resell it?

I've been a businessman for quite a few years and still believe in fairness. I also believe that when someone sells an item of any kind, they need to stand behind that product. What if Walmart decided not to stand behind their products, saying "I didn't make that - I'm not responsible." So I was asking for opinions on what would be fair in this case. (And I know the members of this board really like ethical questions. As do I.) Whenever I buy an item for resale, I recognize that I have also just "bought into" a share of responsibility for that item. That is the risk I assume in my quest for profit.

Glynparson

no way it is dealers fault you should take it up with gai.

softparade

This gum came from a 1978 Topps wax box that I opened. This particular piece shows the average condition of the gum throughout the box. Almost every pack the
gum was stuck to the card and bled through to the second card. AFter that it was PRISTINE city as I pulled many many factory fresh MINT examples from the box that was purchased from Steve Hart.

WinPitcher

Mucky you make some good points but I fail to see how the guy who sold it to you is in anyway responsible for the contents of an encapsulated pack. The pack in question is over 30 years old and has been subject to many temp changes. That is the true risk when buying old packs.

The analogy to walmart IMO does not fit here as items they sell are not 30 years old.

The moral of the story is simply packs that are encapsulated should be left alone as the true value lies in the authentication/encapsulation. Once opened they become just like any other card from that year. In many cases they have problems.


Steve

Good luck in whatever you do.

MuckyMutt

<< <i>The moral of the story is simply packs that are encapsulated should be left alone as the true value lies in the authentication/encapsulation. >>



Agreed! Lesson learned.

zef204

<< <i>

<< <i>I got burned on a 1970 fb cello. It came in the box and looked perfect. The back card was the Alderman facing out and ut was back to back with the OJ. I didn't see until I opened it that it was resealed. They didn't do to good of a job either.
>>



zef, can you elaborate a little more? How did you know after the fact that the cello was resealed? why would you open it with the damage showing and what could you have been expecting. just trying to understand. >>

Damage was not visible from the outside. This was about 4 years ago and I was a bit more naive. The pack looked clean so I opened it. When I got to the last couple of cards and saw the burn marks, I then looke at the cello pack again and saw that it looked like melted plastic where on the bottom where the cards got burned.

I don't know how long you have been on eBay, but there was a Lem Barney card on the front by chance you may remember.


Jordan

stevek

I think we have clearly learned from this thread and other threads regarding GAI slabbed unopened vintage packs, that at the "too high" prices they seem to sell for, they are an extremely poor value and it is much better to simply buy cards already PSA 8 and 9 graded than buying and busting these "unopened" packs.