Options
when did bullion coins become collectible?
MoneyLA
Posts: 1,825 ✭
Okay, so Ive been on another planet for the last five years... but when and how did bullion coins become collectible?
i remember when the first bullion coins came out (was it 1980 with the American Arts series) and no one would touch them. Now there are registry sets for silver, gold and platinum??
I missed the boat.
Im curious to know who turned the boat into a commercial cruise operation? Was it a dealer, the mint, a group of dealers, a slabbing company, what/who?
thanks.
i remember when the first bullion coins came out (was it 1980 with the American Arts series) and no one would touch them. Now there are registry sets for silver, gold and platinum??
I missed the boat.
Im curious to know who turned the boat into a commercial cruise operation? Was it a dealer, the mint, a group of dealers, a slabbing company, what/who?
thanks.
0
Comments
So long as they keep minting something and keep putting a date on it then it will get
more interesting with the passage of time. There would be little interest even in large
cents if they were dateless or all bore the same date. Each date takes on its own per-
sonality as collectors find varieties and various minting characteristics and distribution.
One could say that they were collectible as soon as the first one rolled off the press and
more people discover this with each passing year. To some extent the collectibility of
something is influenced by the lenght of time it was produced and used.
These bullion coins in high grade are one of the two surest bets you can find for appreciation in American numismatics. Jeepers: wake up and smell the coffee: coins with mintages of 20,000, 10,000 and even as low as 5,000 going for bullion + $25/$50, in Proof 69 deep cameo? Or the rare proof 70s for a few grand?
How can you miss?
I don't think you can. Sheeesh, look the only modern coins of comparable mintage -- the Jackie Robinson coins. I bought one of them for a Chanukkah present for a doctor who grew up in Brooklyn rooting for Jackie. I had to pay 3 times issue price plus, plus for a nice, but nothing special gem. So what is ithe Jackie Robinson in top quality? I don't know. 5 times issue value? 10 times? Maybe someone can tell me what a pop-top Jackie Robinson will go for?
Ten years from now, the "worthless" bullion coins that are the subject of this thread are going to be selling for prices like that, in top condition.
And the dealers who today pontificate on what rotten investments these bullion coins are -- they are the same dealers who steered their clients away from post 64-Lincoln pennies, Roosies, Full Steppers, Kennedies, and other series that have doubled and tripled over the last 5 years. They were wrong then and they ain't learned their lesson, so they're wrong now.
They'll tell you to collect the classics like Shield Nickels which I can tell you from personal experience have gone nowhere fast.
And ten years from now, they'll still be mocking the people who collect the bullion coins. But the collectors of the bullion coins -- again in PCGS 69 and 70 holders -- will laughing all the way to the bank with huge profits.
But if you want to collect the bullion gold/platinum coins; you have to get them in 69 or 70, in PCGS holders. Unlike the classics where the NGC holder says something, the NGC 69 and 70 bullion coins are what I'd call "television trash." The PCGS 69 and 70s are the real thing.
Enjoy yourselves and if you have the cajones to face down the mockery and scorn of Dumb Dora dealers you can make some big $$$ in the process. And you know something? They're nice coins to look at in the bargain.
Just Having Fun
A PCGS-MS69 coin - roughly $2,500-$3,000
A PCGS-MS70 coin -roughly $8,000++
The Price moved from $4,500 to $7,000 for the MS70 in the past 30 days on the CU Price Guide. Just try to find one for $7,000. I would not be terribly surprised to see the Price Guide move to close to $9,000-$10,000 by early next year.
By the way - is there a "real" difference between an MS69 and MS70? Absolutely - the issue is plagued with planchet flaws, especially on the reverse. PCGS knocks down these coins to a max grade of MS69 where the planchet flaws are present (a single tiny planchet flaw can be acceptable to an MS70 coin where the rest of the coin is utterly flawless I have found). Small contact marks also ensure that most coins max out at MS69. It is amazing that this coin was not popular when it was issued by the mint. I believe (2) Plat Proof coins now sport mintages lower than this JR $5 Gold Commem. Both of those platinum coins routinely sell for less than the JR Gold at this point (one close to half price)!
Wondercoin.
You mean like Saints or Libs?
There has been a collector base for the modern eagles since they they hit the scene back in 1986. I think the base has really grown with the help of the TPG's.
Larry
Dabigkahuna
Either it's a sign of the approaching Apocalypse, or it was when the coin market lost its last shred of sensibility.
Hello Mr. Kahuna -- Da BIGGGG One:
I'm not sure what MoneyLA had in mind.
But the Saints and Liberties don't sell for bullion style valuations -- at least in AU or better. These have clearly had a strong collector base since before I was a kiddie poo back in the 1940s.
In my mind, when MoneyLA spoke about bullion coins, I immediately thought of the modern day one-ouncers in silver, gold, and palladium, that the Mint sells to the wholesalers for bullion plus 3% to 9% -- the modern eagles as you call 'em. And these have had a collector base for some time, but in my opinion have only come center stage in the last year, or maybe year-and-a-half.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Maybe, but I would like you ask you which you think is the safer investment:
-- (a) an MS65 1980-S Morgan dollar (PCGS population upwards of 52,000) for which you pay 10 to 20 times bullion? Or ...
-- (b) an MS69 Platinum coin for a date with total mintage 10,000, 8,000, or even 5,000-- for which you pay a modest 10% premium over bullion?
And which do you think is more likely to appreciate?
The Dumb Dora dealers keep pushing their clients towards the series that haven't appreciated and aren't likely to appreciate (excepting key dates and condition rarities) -- and they keep pushing their clients away from the series that have been appreciating and are likely to blast up in value.
------
For me coin collecting is neither a business nor an investment. I mostly collect for fun -- something to occupy my spare time. So I collect mostly classic coins because they present quite a challenge -- and whence are a heck of a lot of fun. You can check my Shield Nickel collections (Proof or business strike) to see that I'm quite dedicated to it. But I know that except for the condition rarities and key dates that they're going nowhere in value.
If I was interested in investing, give me the moderns (or the US Philippines). Those niche markets are where the big money is being made by collectors today, and where the big money will be made tomorrow.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
JHF: I do not know for sure. If I had to guess, I would say around $250 to $350 maybe? If so, you are looking at roughly 10x price rise in less than 10 years. Even at this 10x level, I am always on the look out for a preminum quality MS69 at under $2,500. I recently got out bid at closer to $3,000 for a nice MS69 coin. The 10x price doesn't "scare" me personally in the least - I'd buy (10) coins sight-seen in the low $2,000's per coin this weekend if I was given the chance. But, the JR coin is a bit Off Topic...
I think the Platinum bullion is the coolest of all as well. The 2004 $50 Plat Proof is the lowest mintage type coin the US Mint has released since 1915. Even this year's 2005 $100 MS Plat coin currently has a mintage I believe in the low 5,000's at this point and trades around 10%-15% over spot. Meanwhile, the "low mintage" 1995(w) Silver Eagle with a mintage slightly over 30,000 trades at nearly $4,200 raw. The 2005 $100 plat also has around $950 more in metal in it besides the 25,000 coin lesser mintage than the 95w Silver Eagle! And, yet it trades at around 1/4 the price of that "scarce" Silver Eagle. It's not that difficult for me to find the Plat coins very, very cool.
Wondercoin
Both of your examples are poor choices, IMO... kind of like giving a kid a choice of playing in the street or running with scissors.
There are thousands of other options out there for people to choose from, but in your specific head-to-head matchup given, the platinum round looks like the smarter choice.
I'm a Morgan collector, but I don't want anything to do with an 1880-S. But tell me what the platinum coin sells for and then let me decide what I think is a better use of those funds.
Do you think the 1991 Gold 1/2 ounce Eagle is under valued at todays prices? They appear to be appreciating slightly just recently on Ebay and the supply appears to be dwindling.
I bought one of these several years ago and the price has doubled since. I'm hoping it does that again, and again, and again
I agee with RC, cladking, JHF and wondercoin on this topic. The bullion Plats became collectable to me after I bought my first "coin".
On a side note, I spoke to Mike White(Director of PA) at the US Mint earlier this week, and here are the latest Plat Proof figures for the last three years. The 2003 numbers are final, the 2004 are waiting a final audit (minor adjustments+/-) and the 2005 are sales numbers as of last week. Also, Mike mentioned the $100 Plat Proof is sold out for 2005.
Type/2003/2004/2005
$100/8,256/6,074/6,580
$50 /7,131/5,095/5,407
$25 /7,044/5,226/5,466
$10 /9,534/7,202/7,412
Thats the latest for the Plat Proof Bullion coins, for those that are interested.
BBpM
#1 Registry Set $100 MS Plats.
I bought one of these several years ago and the price has doubled since. I'm hoping it does that again, and again, and again"
Just my own opinion (do your own homework): A "hoard" of around (100) coins recently surfaced and are being distributed to some extent at this time, best I know. They are in "very strong hands" so I do not expect any discounting, but, I also do not personally expect any amazing % increase on the date in MS69 grade in 2006 either. The coin, which I believe has a mintage of around 24,000 is perhaps the most exciting MS Gold Eagle of the entire MS Gold Eagle run of all denominations- BUT, the coin is already trading at 300% - 400% melt. I have declined to take "a position" in that coin date personally, because I prefer the platinum with less than 1/2 the mintage of this 1991 Gold Eagle selling for 115% of melt. Just my 2 cents - and, of course, if platinum crashes as a metal to $500/oz, my 115% of melt becomes 200%+ of melt as well - so by no means am I suggesting buying plat statue of liberty PR69DC coins is anything close to "risk free". But, what in life is that is "exciting"?
Wondercoin
<< <i> A "hoard" of around (100) coins >>
Yes, I noticed a guy on Ebay selling quite a few of them; and he would number his auctions. I lost track of how many he sold...
Thanks for your answer. You make a lot of sense and it's a way I haven't thought of it...
A person can collect anything.. and that something is worth what someone out there will pay for it.
On a personal note, I LOVE the bullion coins... especially the gold $5 ones. They are neat, with a beautiful design. I have a large collection of loose $5, and $10 coins in nice airtight holders. I have many duplicates of the roman numeral released coins. I thought that was really interesting.
They also make neat novelty type gifts.
Michelle
I always wanted to get the proof platinum coins and now I am collecting them. I just like how the design changes every year and it is nice knowing that they low a low mintage compared to the other mint products. I don't think I could collect 1 type of coin if they all looked the same, but the date was different. It is also nice that there isn't a huge premium on them unless you want a gem 70 coin.
Most of the other coins in my collection are also bullion. ASE rolls, gold Krugerrand, Mexican 50 peso, Canadian maple leaf.
Watch for upcoming newly labeled slabs for all different kinds of things. First Strikes,
"Born On" dates, celebrations, etc.......
IT'S REALLY GOING TO GET CRAZY FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN READING ON THE BOARDS LATELY!
<< <i>It appears now that it is a slabbing company building a phenomenal bullion sales boom!
Watch for upcoming newly labeled slabs for all different kinds of things. First Strikes,
"Born On" dates, celebrations, etc.......
IT'S REALLY GOING TO GET CRAZY FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN READING ON THE BOARDS LATELY!
Personally I prefer the plain simple slab over one that says first strike on it. I guess I like everything to match