A Changing of the Guard in 1970 Kellogg?

Davalillo

Its been a while since I looked at the standings in 1970 Kellogg and to my surprise there was a set owned by Stephen Barr--"Pieces of History"--that has a 9.78 Set Rating. This is just .05 behind the 9.83 of 4-time winner Gemmintman.

It seems like ages ago that I was competing for the rare low-pop PSA 10s that appeared in this set and I'm surprised Stephen moved up so quickly. Even after Zardoz and Dave Jacobs gave me their 10s, I thought they appeared so infrequently on ebay that I would never catch Gemmintman so I lost interest. Seems like King Kellogg did too as I don't think he has changed in more than a year.

Looking at Stephen's set(Gemmintmans is closed) I see I have 8 PSA 10s he does not that would put him in the lead--and Stephen did give me that last Rold Gold PSA 9 to finish my set....hmmmm.

Stump

Jim

Vey interesting. It appears that Stephen submits alot of his own on these. Thats the first time Gemmintman has ever been it danger of losing his grip on the top spot, Up till now he has had a stranglehold on it. It just go's to show you that time changes most things. I am quite certain there is still alot of raw 70's kelloggs out there and more will be graded in the future. I hope you had a good Christmas and all is well with you and your family. Once again it is a good thing to have you back posting

Dave

Davalillo

Thanks Dave--I did have a great Christmas--my son is home from college and my daughter is here so it is nice to have my family of four together. Merry Christmas to you and your family and thanks for the warm wishes.

I think Stephen does submit a lot of them himself--he seems to have raw and graded multiple copies of many cards. Perhaps with my help and indirectly your help he can get to be number one--as you say "time changes most things". Stay tuned.

Jim

doncherry

<< <i>It just go's to show you that time changes most things. I am quite certain there is still alot of raw 70's kelloggs out there and more will be graded in the future.

<< <i>

agree 100% the race for top spot in this set is going to end up at 10.00 with more than one person getting there

Stump

Jim

Great to here your chidren were homeand all is well. My daughter was also home from college. Soon to be a lawyer. She is a little mouthier that I would like but it will serve her well in her profession. Will watch for the wind of change.

Don Cherry

I am sure you are right. I have passed on many raw sets this last year. I used to have alot of kellogg's but got pretty upset when I had two 10's crack in many pieces after submission. So I sold just about everything I had in them. Still have maybe 20 raw sets of various years.

Dave

mikeschmidt

I have always believed that there is great potential for more 10s from this set. Currently, the Population report suggests that there are 30 PSA 9s for every 10 - and the 'average' card from this set has over 100 PSA 9s. Granted - that is skewed a bit, as there are some tougher cards to find in PSA 9 [e.g. 30-50 PSA 9s in Population] - but I always thought that if you had 5-10 PSA 9s of a single card, cracked them out and resubmitted, the odds of getting one of them bumped to a 10 would be pretty darn high. I do not know if anyone has done this in any great number - but I assure you that other collectors do this either in player sets or other sets [1993 Finest Refractors is a good example]. With this set especially, in my limited experience, it was very difficult for me to differentiate what the primary differences were between a 9 and a 10. Perhaps the slightest of surface scratches somewhere on the 3-D surface? I'm not sure. At any rate - there are very few cards from this set that have never been graded 10.

Jim: As an aside - that is not your only modern set, as I've seen you've made progress on your 1970 Milton Bradley set now, too! Thankfully you never got caught up in that set. I remember at one point when a Clemente 10 from that set fetched $2,000. Ahh!

~ms

Davalillo

Marc,

I agree that there will be a 10.0 set(probably by Pieces of April) and it will come about from him submitting and resubmitting until he gets it.

You are of course right that this is not my only "modern" set. If one defines modern as 1970 and later, I actually have a half dozen of them. I use the classification 1959 and before vintage, 1960s semi-vintage and 1970 on modern.

As you will remember, I was debating the whole issue with Zardoz, King Kellogg and Gemmint a ways back and it got a bit personal(not with Zardoz). I would trade out of my low pops in this set for the right offer.

I'm glad I came late to the party on the Milton Bradleys--I think I need only 3-4 cards for a psa 10 set.

Happy Holidays.

Jim

mikeschmidt

Jim: I always thought that the 1970 Milton Bradley set was a fun set from the era. Certainly the nicest of a run of really ugly Milton Bradley cards. I was surprised to see that it was you that snagged the Sam McDowell PSA 10 card. It's a 1/1, and that PSA 10 was graded within the last six months. Hard to believe such a common would be the sticking point for so long in a PSA 10 set from that issue. You will probably be able to track those last four 10s down eventually.

Those debates of course are infamous. It's amazing how much that set [and the discussion around it] has quieted down in the past few years. At the very least - it appears as if thegemmintman really took advantage of grading out large quantities of a few of the oddball/esoteric sets before the Set Registry came on strong - and still has very amazing sets to show for it.

Sounds like you had a great holiday season as well. Cheers to you and the family.

Fabfrank

Stephen is one of the nicest guys to correspond with. We email each other and discuss 70 Kellogg's football from time to time. He does receive many of his grades from his own submissions. Regardless of whether you do a deal with him or not, the conversation is always fun and informative.

smallstocks

Just a few short months ago, i sold Stephen 3 PSA 10's from my own collection. I agree, he is a great guy.

BearCollector

Wow ... I don't know what to say. It's nice to see a segment of one's collection get some notice. Thanks for all the kind words.

All I can say is that things have been falling into place beyond my expectations, especially in recent weeks, and getting anywhere near the top on this set is WAY beyond what I initially set out to do. That said, I'm not there yet and may never quite make it. We'll see. I've gone head-to-head with gemmintman on a couple of auctions on some initial 1/1's and usually do not come out ahead. I'm happy with the set regardless, as I'm sure gemmintman and others in mint or above are as well.

Thanks to all who have helped along the way, and here's hoping we all meet our collecting goals in the future.

BearCollector

" .... agree 100% the race for top spot in this set is going to end up at 10.00 with more than one person getting there"

You know, I'm not so sure. 1970 Kellogg's Football may get to 10.00 (although finding a centered Mike Garrett will still be quite a challenge), mostly due to the availablility of unopened sets, but baseball will be a LOT tougher. Those #16-26 cards are still MIGHTY tough to find worthy enough to even submit. Despite all the recent advancements, there are still no more than 11 PSA 10s for any one card, and there are still 22 that are 1/1 or less and another 9 that have a pop of 2. From my experience, I think the recent uptick in grading has probably peaked due to less available high grade raw material, and even with more 10s being graded, there is still a pretty strong group of interested collectors to divide them up over. It may get to 9.90+, but even that will be quite difficult.

Davalillo

The change might be upon us.

Stephen told me he got 3 more psa 10s from raw submissions and he made me an offer I couldn't refuse for my pop 1 Santo. So maybe this will put him in the lead--if so, I couldn't be happier.

Jim

Davalillo

The winds of change are blowing even stronger.

Stump

Jim

Should be interesting. I think the koolaid guy should make an appearance


Dave

mikeschmidt

Well - he has officially passed thegemmintman now:

Here's the link

Not only that - he has opened up his set.

PLUS - there is now a 1970 Rold Gold Tris Speaker PSA 10 in his Rold Gold set. A hearty congratulations are in order!

Stump

He hasn't even loaded Jim's Santo yet. That will give him a bigger lead.

Jim do you still have ten's that he could use. Just curious.

Gemmintman's set has been at the top for a long time.

Dave

Davalillo

Whoo whoo.

I have four psa 10s that he does not have.

Perhaps I will sell them to him too--we'll see.

He has done a good job getting to the top on his own.

Congrats again Stephen--great accomplishment.

Dav

1420sports

Is the name of the game finding thrill in the top guy falling or a new guy rising? It seems that folks are getting a stiffy over thegemmintman's #2 ranking .... why?

Davalillo

Dave and Marc,

What is also interesting is that I saved a post from a noted Kellogg collector(who I have nothing against now by the way) who said that he as well as two other noted kellogg collectors at that time(one of which was you Dave) would gladly give up your psa 10s to the Gemmintman to secure his number 1 rating into perpetuity. Honestly!! I think the whole post was removed shortly after it went up. We know the King has the Mincher in 10 but that is probably all he has that can help Gemmint. The other collector probably has nothing that will help and we all know what happened to your 10s Dave.
Kind of ironic.

Jim

mikeschmidt

<< <i>Is the name of the game finding thrill in the top guy falling or a new guy rising? It seems that folks are getting a stiffy over thegemmintman's #2 ranking .... why? >>



Neal:

Personally, I'm excited to see a new guy rising - it has nothing to do with a top guy falling. From my perspective [all those silly antics from years gone by aside], thegemmintman has had an awesome set that has been virtually untouchable over the last 4 years. I don't think he's actively been upgrading, as I've seen many 1/1s on Ebay go by without his interest. That being said - NO ONE has really talked about this set, I think, in 2-3 years. I think it's really cool that someone has put together a spectacular set and is continuing to improve it. I applaud his efforts - and I think it's worthy of congratulations. As I mentioned in my other post - I thought his coolest addition was the Rold Gold Speaker PSA 10 1/1, given that, even in PSA 9, it is the chase card of the set. I just get excited for collectors who are able to find and put together incredible sets - especially if it is a collector who isn't one of the same old characters.

Happy New Year to all-
Marc

carew4me

All the Kellogg hype from the past is long gone along with most of those who kept it going.

Gemmintman hardly posts anymore.

Its good to see new blood come into play on some of these sets.

1420sports

Marc, no doubt passing #1 is quite an acheivement on any set, but is seems as if some were rooting against thegemmintman and not for the new guy ... I was just curious as to why. Was it based on the historic Kellogg squabbles of days past? I don't remember them as vividly as I once did, but was thegemmintman davalillio's arch enemy or something?

Davalillo

1420,

Quit trying to stir the pot and cause trouble...again.

You know Marc is my friend and wouldn't answer that.

Jim

Stump

1420

No stiffy from this guy unless its my wife dancing for me. I just think it is great to see a guy through mostly his own submissions to rise to the top. I was the first to praise Dave Cryer when he passed my all time finest 69 set. I even helped him get there as I would help anyone in this hobby to acheive thier goals. As Jim stated he got my 10's but I would have gladly sold them to Gemmintman or anyone else who wanted to move up in the rankings. I did what I wanted to do with the Kellogg's and Jim and I did a trade/cash deal. He had cards I wanted and I had cards he wanted. It was good for both. As far as the old Kellogg's squables I feel like they were mostly fun but maybe some took it too serious. It certainly is hard to read someones emotions some times when they post. All in all most people on this forum are stand up guys but there are a few who try to stir the pot. Those are the ones that frustrate me. I beleive Stephen did a great job moving up and I give him alot of credit for doind alot of it through his own submissions. Thats all. If Gemmintman moves back to the top. Good for him as I will congradulate him also.

Happy New Year to all.

Dave

1420sports

actually, not trying to stir any pot davillilo - those were all valid questions.
I just want to know why you are so hell bent on seeing thegemmintman go down ... almost like it is a three year old mission.

Davalillo

Yeah....right.

GoSoxBoSox

Neal,

I think this will do nothing except to re-invigorate gemmintman who probably went to sleep because of a lack of competition. Regardless of Jim's glee on Gemmintman losing the #1 position it will never change the fact that Gemmintman pounded him so bad he quit the chase. I think Jim realized his time and money where better spend on the other 99 sets he's chasing. That was certainly a better choice for him and seems to be making spectacular progress. I've seen his collection twice and can will testify it can be numbing to see so much high grade material in one place. You quickly become desensitized at the rare items you see because there's just one item after the next. It's tuly a great time and I recommend everyone visit when Jim opens his doors as he seems to do each year.

So I see where you're coming from Neal, but I also feel it's nice to see some changes at the top now and then (i.e new blood). May the best man win that battle regardless of who helps them win. Afterall, as long as they both have such great sets who the hell cares if there's a .01 point difference? Some do ...I don't.

Another lead spot change worth noting ...it's good to see Scott Ireland roar to #1 on the 1934 Goudey set. Louchios has had the #1 slot since the registry began, and I doubt he'll get that position back from Scott anytime soon ....if ever.

1420sports

if I wanted to stir the pot - you would know it. I thought it was a valid question, but you obviously took offense.

Davalillo

Just going on past behavior and the tone of your question which others interpreted the same way.

1420sports

Tom - nice answer ... which is what I was looking for. I did not know that there was a history between them, which is whay I asked. And I agree ... the #1 spot is there for someone to claim.

not everyone is out to get you ....

Davalillo

So Gemmint pounded me so bad I quit the chase??? Ha--was never in the chase my friend--said my goal was top two--he was always so far ahead it was never a goal. You more than anyone should know first its a modern set and secondly that my goals are 8 or better or in certain sets 9 or better.Dave and I asked King to put all our sets together on the registry to give Gemmint a scare but King did not want to do it. The only way to beat Gemmint is to get an enormous amount of raw cards and submit and resubmit and resubmit. If it comes down to bidding on ebay for the pop 1s Gemmint will win as he is willing to pay a lot more than Stephen--but don't think this will be the way the game is primarily played in this set.

Davalillo

Four more of my pop 1/pop 2s go to Steven who will lengthen his lead in the set and move him closer to that 10.0 set.

Good luck Steven!!!!!

Dav