Opinions on Addition to All-Time NFL Defense Set

JasP24

I am thinking about requesting that Bucs LB Derrick Brooks be added to the All-Time NFL Defense Set on the Football Key Card Registry.

Since that set was formulated and agreed upon right here on the PSA Message Board, I thought I should see what the other football guys think before making the request. Especially since PSA doesn't send out a poll everytime a request is made.

The case for him?

He just got selected to his 9th Pro Bowl. More than these other yet to be elected HOFers who are already part of the set: Darrell Green, Deion Sanders, and Ray Lewis and is the same number as Derrick Thomas.

Comparing him to other LBs already in the set, I think his career (which includes a Super Bowl ring) is very comparable to say a Ted Hendricks, Derrick Thomas, Junior Seau and/or Ray Lewis. He has more Pro Bowls than any other ACTIVE defensive player and if he were to retire today he would go down as one of the best LBs ever and a definite Hall of Famer. He has been dominant in his era.

The case against him?

HOF LB's George Conner, Joe Schmidt, Bill George, Nick Buoniconti, Bobby Bell, Dave Wilcox, and Willie Lanier are NOT part of the set. So I guess the question is, where does Derrick Brooks fall???

Our initial premise was to keep the set small which is why there are HOFers (like the LBs listed above) who aren't even included in the set. But comparing him to guys who we already agreed deserved to be there, personally I think he belongs. In fact, I think Joe Schmidt belongs as well.

The card to be added would be 1995 SP#103, which is his most valuable BASE SET rookie card.

Let me know what you think. Especially those of you who are collecting the set.

Jason

Dallas88

Jason - I would agree on schmidt as well as Brooks, that both be added.

If you have your set on the registry, do you mind providing a link?

Thanks!

-dal-

JasP24

Absolutely.

My All-Time Defense Set

All cards have scans too!lol

Jason

Fabfrank

When we originally created the set, there were many players that merited inclusion, but the set participants decided to limit it and 12 per defensive postion (DL, LB, DB). I agree that Brooks is worthy, but does that mean we need to eliminate a LB to add him to the set, or are we going to change the sets parameters?

kennylow

I'm an outsider on this set, but with an opinion, take it for what that's worth:

I think it's cool to have set parameters and keep it at that. If it means the 12 best at every position, then knock someone out of the set if you include someone else. If it means a Upper Tier HOF Defensive player set, then great players can just be added on as they get to that level. But it would be useful to define the set first...and then the answer on if Brooks belongs can be debated.

JasP24

Yep, I totally forgot about that Frank. With these All-Time sets though, I think we have to stay flexible and these sets are made so we can have a mix of retired HOFers and current stars all in one set.

Absolutely no one should ever be deleted from any of these sets. I know we did it with Kurt Warner and the QB set, but he should have never even been on that set in the first place. As they stand now, no one should be deleted from any of the all-time sets. Everyone on them is deserving.

Expansion is another story. I want the All-Time Defense set to live and breathe just like the QB,RB and WR sets do. As current players become all-time greats they should be eligible to be added to these sets. It is what sets them apart from say a 1970 Topps Set where the cards are locked in stone and will never change. And if over time, we find oversights (Jim Taylor on the All-Time RB set is an example) we should be able to right any wrongs there may be. I still think the set should be limited to the top level All-Time greats. That doesn't mean every defensive HOFer gets on it either, only the first or second ballot type HOFers and future HOFers. It will be harder to keep this set small simply because this is an all encompassing every defensive position set. But thats what the message board and polls are for...The guys collecting the set will have final say on any additions.

zef204

I thnk Ray Lewis should be taken out. A few great years should hardly merit him being on the "All-Time NFL Defense."

JasP24

Kenny,

My memory isn't the greatest on this, but I believe the 12 per position was to help us in our initial creation of the set. We had quite a few different opinions and I think limiting it at the time helped us to pare down the set and start with the 12 best per DL, LB, DB...

I don't believe however that the set is locked in/and will never change from 36 players. As players become worthy, they should be considered for the set. Just like all of the other All-Time Great sets. Much like the HOF, once a player is added/inducted they should not be deleted. Collectors could be buying these specific cards because they are needed for the set. Deleting them from the set invalidates the purchased card, and that would be wrong to do in my opinion. Once a guy is added, he's there for life...So we have to be sure about the addition before we make it.

To me, Derrick Brooks needed one more great season to move into that upper echelon. 2005, he had another great Pro Bowl season. I don't see any other current Defensive guys even close to being added within the next say 3 years...

Joe Schmidt to me, is the one HOFer that just missed our initial cut. He was so dominant in his era, I can't see how we can have Hendricks, D. Thomas, Seau and not Joe Schmidt...

Jason

JasP24

I would have to disagree on Ray Lewis. If he retired today he would go down as one of the top 3 or 4 LBs to ever play the game. He didn't just have a few great years, he was the most dominant defensive player in the game. He absolutely belongs in the set.

He WILL BE a first ballot HOFer. and thats the type of talent that belongs in the set.

Fabfrank

Jason, I don't believe the set should stay static either. As players are deemed eligible they should be added. In the rushers set we it was decided and Rb with over 10,000 yards would automatically gain entry. I don't know if there is and "automatic inclusion" stat for the WR and QB sets, but it would help if there was something similar for defensive players.
Aside from that, the only other way to determine inclusion would be through a polling of the current set holders.
BTW, did you notice I. Bruce was also added to the WR set? Did you request that one?

zef204

<< <i>I would have to disagree on Ray Lewis. If he retired today he would go down as one of the top 3 or 4 LBs to ever play the game. He didn't just have a few great years, he was the most dominant defensive player in the game. He absolutely belongs in the set.

He WILL BE a first ballot HOFer. and thats the type of talent that belongs in the set. >>

I respectfully disagree. Top 3 or 4 linebackers to ever play the game is a bold statement. He doesn't hold a candle to Singletary, Butkus, Bill George, Lambert, Lanier, Ham, Hendricks, Nitschke or Buoniconti. Lewis's 5 great years are less than the 8+ dominant years all of the above had. Will he be a HOFer, I think he will need to produce for a few more years. At this point he is questionable and to say he is top 3 or 4 LB's ever is a blatant overstatement.

JasP24

Frank,

Yes I requested Jimmy Smith and Isaac Bruce awhile back (before the season actually). I was told by Cosetta to e-mail her again when they broke the 800 reception barrier, which I did and they were added. Not sure if that is a set standard or what. I think for WR it should probably be 800 receptions AND 12,000 yards. That would seem to put them up there in the elite catagory.

This was sort of meant to be my PRE-poll just in case PSA doesn't send one out if I were to request Brooks to be added.

zef,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Ray Lewis. When all (6 or 7) of the guys here initially helped put together the All-Time Defense set, Ray Lewis was on every single list. Most sports talk radio and TV analysts Ive ever heard talk about Ray Lewis put him in the Singletary, Butkus, Lambert category of THE absolute best to ever play the position. Based on what I've seen him do over the years, I tend to agree with them. Maybe I should have said top 3 or 4 MLBs of all time, because thats really who I was comparing him too when saying that...

I think the bigger point is that once we (those of us involved with putting together a new set request) agree a player is deserving to be added, much like the HOF, there is no going back. I'll put my $100 right now that Lewis is a first ballot HOFer when his time comes. lol

Jason

zef204

<< <i>zef,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Ray Lewis. When all (6 or 7) of the guys here initially helped put together the All-Time Defense set, Ray Lewis was on every single list. Most sports talk radio and TV analysts Ive ever heard talk about Ray Lewis put him in the Singletary, Butkus, Lambert category of THE absolute best to ever play the position. Based on what I've seen him do over the years, I tend to agree with them. Maybe I should have said top 3 or 4 MLBs of all time, because thats really who I was comparing him too when saying that...

I think the bigger point is that once we (those of us involved with putting together a new set request) agree a player is deserving to be added, much like the HOF, there is no going back. I'll put my $100 right now that Lewis is a first ballot HOFer when his time comes. lol

Jason >>

Jason,

This is your set, I guess, and built by you and those you conferred with. Have it however you want as I was only offering my $.02.


TV analysts last week said both "This performance by Kyle Boller is one of the best I have seen in years." And, "Peyton Manning hasn't played this poorly in years." The Boller situation is laughable, but the Peyton game:

Week 2 vs Jacksonville 122 yds, 0 td, 1 int
Week 5 vs SF, 255 yds, 1 td, 2 int

Week 15 vs SD, 336 yds, 1 td, 2 int"

Looks like analysits consider 10 and 13 weeks ago, years ago. Point being, they don't always know what they are talking about. I may take that bet about Lewis if somehow he never plays another game. For now I started a poll in the sports forum about Lewis retiring today and if he would be inducted into the HOF. We'll see.

If Kobe Bryant retired today would he be a 1st balloter? He is more accomplished in the same time amount of time than Lewis. Thoughts?

Fabfrank

When the polling starts, I'll vote yes for Brooks.

JasP24

Frank,

I sent a request to PSA today to add the following to the set. I also asked that they send out a poll on these, so hopefully they will.

1956 Topps Joe Schmidt
1963 Topps Larry Wilson
1971 Topps Willie Lanier
1995 SP Derrick Brooks

After doing additional digging on the current defensive HOFers, I decided to request Lanier and Wilson also. Wilson was a first ballot HOFer (the only defensive first ballot guy not in the set) and was arguable the greatest Safety to ever play. Schmidt and Lanier were both dominant players of their eras, and I'm guessing they missed making the first list because we cut it off at 12 per position (DL, LB, DB)...

The only other guy I was seriously considering was Bill George, but I was really on the fence with him. Personally I rate Schmidt, Lanier and Brooks all slightly better at the LB position, but it was very close. If someone else were to request him, I would probably vote yes.

Anyway, hopefully we can finally get some of these deserving guys added to the set in which they belong.

Jason

jradke4

I think you might have to think about adding LeRoy Butler as well. He was someone that has changed the way teams think of the safety position. He was able to play in the box to stop the run and rush the pass. Plus he was able to cover not only TE's and Rb's but also WR's coming out of the slot position. Not to mention he could still play the ball. Some stats.

12 seasons
181 games
38 Ints
20.5 Sacks
953 Tackles
735 unassisted Tackles

Not to mention he invented the Lambeau Leap

Fabfrank

Packer propaganda!
I wouldn't even consider Butler. Without even looking at the stats, R. Harrison and S. Awater would deserve consideration before him.

(Moderator wouldn't allow me to speall Steve's real name. Inappropriate word is contained in it

JasP24

Butler was a nice player, and will warrant HOF consideration. One thing I do like to look at when judging a players career is how many times that player was voted by the AP sportswriters to the All-Pro Team. A little different than the Pro Bowl since the votes are cast ONLY by football experts and its less of a popularity contest. They also seek to select ONE player for each position from the entire NFL. So its not a 45 man roster from the AFC and the NFC, its 11 guys on offense, 11 on defense and 4 Special teamers chosen from the entire NFL. So to be selected, the player would have to be judged to have been the BEST as his position for that season. Here are some numbers of All-Pro selections to compare for Safeties of that era(1981-2004):

Ronnie Lott-5
LeRoy Butler- 4
Kenny Easley- 4
Darren Woodson-3
John Lynch-3
Joey Browner-3
Deron Cherry- 3
Steve At-water- 2
Carnell Lake -2
Rodney Harrison- 2
Brian Dawkins-2


Since we are looking for the absolute best for the All-Time Defense set and not even all HOFers are on it, Butler doesnt quite fit the bill. He will have a good shot at making the HOF, but I don't think he's anywhere near being a shoe in or a first ballot kinda guy like say Ronnie Lott...

Davalillo

Jason,

My opinion is you are being too inclusive.

I come at this as a fan without all the stats but why Larry Wilson. I condider he and Willy Wood to be peers and roughly equal in stature.
And is Ted Hendricks deserving? When I think about the great outside linebackers I don't think of him.
I would vote against all four proposals if we are talking about the best of the best.

Jim

JasP24

Dav,

Larry Wilson was a first ballot HOFer and was named to the 75th Anniversary team along with Ken Houston and Ronnie Lott as the only other Safeties...Although he and Wood played around the same time frame, and both were big hitters that is where the comparisons end...It took Wood 13 years to be elected into the HOF...

Please remember this set was put together by 6 or 7 collectors right here on the message boards, it wasn't just me. We came to agreements on 12 players per (DL, LB, DB) position and went with that. Once a player is selected and agreed upon, I do not beleive he should be removed from any of the All-Time Great sets.

Hendricks does have some credibility as an All-Time great though. He played in 8 Pro Bowls, 4 Super Bowls, All-Pro 4 times and was also named ot the 75th Anniversary team (along with Willie Lanier). Hendricks was elected to the HOF in his 2nd year of eligibility.


My Top 5 OLB's?
1- Lawrence Taylor
2- Jack Ham
3- Ted Hendricks
4- Derrick Thomas
5- Derrick Brooks

Let's see your list and who you are putting in front of Hendricks at OLB...lol

Jason

Davalillo

Jason,

You're the expert and I'm not second guessing you. For all these things I like only the superstars to be included--like 1 player for each position.

Off the top of my head, I would have Lott and Krause as safeties, Butkus as middle linebacker and LT and Bobby Bell as OLBs. I know you'll give me the statistical reason why Hendricks is better than Bell but I just remember Bell as being more dominant.

Happy New Year,

Jim

JasP24

Bobby Bell was a good one too, no doubt..

I think if we only had one per position, the set would be 11 cards, and to me thats not much fun...The All-Time Defense set was built along the same lines as the All-Time QB/RB and WR sets. We didn't want to separate into all-time DL, LBs and DBs because yes that would be too inclusive.

I think the All-Time Defense set was a great idea of I beleive fabfrank or maybe davemri, cant remember really. And its an ever evolving set. I think it truly is only the all-time greats, but when you are talking about all defensive players over the last 80 years, its going to be larger than 11 guys...

Thanks for the input though, its always good to consider other opinions.

Happy New year to you as well!
Jason

fsjeter

Is it me or is the 1976 Topps #427 Ed "Too Tall" Jones strangely absent from this All-Time NFL Defense set? Surely he has to be considered as well.

Scott

JasP24

Too Tall was a good player, but he's not even a HOFer and probably never will be. He's never even been a finalist (Final 15 candidates) for the HOF. He is on the All-Time Cowboys set, but no where near being one of the top 50 defensive players in NFL history...He was an AP All-Pro twice and made 3 Pro Bowls in his 15 year career. There are at least 10 DL's who would be rated ahead of Too Tall who also aren't on the All-Time Defense set.

I love the diversity here though, for every collecto rwho thinks the set is too inclusive, there is another collector who thinks we are missing other qualified candidates for the set.

Maybe we could start a All-Time Greatest Nicknames set, in which Too Tall Jones would surely belong..lol

But remember, you can always add your own PSA Registry All-Time Defense set and send PSA a request to add any player you wish. They will send out a poll to everyone collecting the set and if the guy gets 50% or better on the votes, he will be added. This type of set is by collectors for collectors...

Jason