Hypothetical #2 - 1916-D Dime

MrEureka · December 16, 2005 2:07PM

You're at a coin show talking to a respectable coin dealer that you've just met. Somebody walks up to his table and offers his a nice uncirculated 1916-D Dime in a Capital Plastics holder. They haggle over the price, he buys it for 15K CASH, and the seller walks away. You ask to see the coin and ask for a price. He quotes 18K and you write him a check. When you get the coin home, you open the holder and two coins fall out! Amazingly, there are TWO 1916-D dimes! The pair is worth about $36,000! What do you do? Are you obligated to return one of the coins to the dealer?

HTubbs · December 16, 2005 2:23PM

Yes,it would be tough,but it would be the right thing to do.What the dealer did after that is entirely up to him.Personally I think a split would work.However if I was the dealer I'd be tempted not to,however it would be the right thing to do as well.

Now enough with the freakin' capital plastic holders,Andy!

Hayden

ILikeDimes · December 16, 2005 2:24PM

no deceit on your part and you'll never find the person who sold it to the dealer.......I'd keep em both.

edit: Neither one of them knew what they had....kinda like finding a VAM or a DDO....they didn't know and you did (eventually).

HTubbs · December 16, 2005 2:26PM

However if for example this was at FUN and I didn't realize it till after the 1.5 hour drive home,I think I would probly keep them...

HTubbs · December 16, 2005 2:31PM

However if for example this was at FUN and I didn't realize it till after the 1.5 hour drive home,I think I would probly keep them...

gyocomgd · December 16, 2005 2:37PM

Sorry, but I would keep them both. The fellow thought he was buying one coin and selling one coin. Returning it would be like dropping money in his lap, and I'd just as soon that it fall in my lap as his.

ROBERTB · December 16, 2005 2:39PM

<< Sorry, but I would keep them both. >>

Ditto.

atarian · December 16, 2005 2:41PM

its a double edge sword. cause remember to the gold coin how most probably would tell you nothing they can do since they bought it as it and then sold it to you . even if it was true that the gold coins didnt match up. case in point i would have to say in both cases you pay for what you get. in this case the dealer had the coin for about 2 minutes didnt take the time to look it over. and really is gonna be his loss. like it was gonna be your loss if you bought the 1911D and it was a 11p and a 25 D. IF it was a dealer who owned it for a long time and you knew him yeah that would be different perhaps . cause like the unsealed rolls he might have been the one to put the 2 in by mistake. ( untill a shipment where another holder was available). but this was clearly buyer beware and easy come easy go.

keep em, you just cherrypicked yourself 2 nice 1916D mercs go buy yourslef a nice drink

ColonialCoinUnion · December 16, 2005 2:49PM

I'd tell him there were two and return one. I would however keep the better one.

Nocerino18 · December 16, 2005 2:53PM

Probably keep both. You purchased it and bore all the risk. The coin you purchased could have been fake as well.

michael · December 16, 2005 4:07PM

Amazingly, there are TWO 1916-D dimes! The pair is worth about $36,000! What do you do? Are you obligated to return one of the coins to the dealer?

you give another 7500 to the dealer

gyocomgd · December 16, 2005 4:31PM

Since I answered the question, I'd like to point out that this hypothetical is absurd--two dimes positioned to look at one, the thickness indiscernible when you look at it? Just nuts. But I enjoyed the mental exercise.

morgannut2 · December 16, 2005 4:37PM

A "respected" coin dealer buying or selling a coin still in a Capital Plastics holder is a contadiction in terms--

Darkmane · December 16, 2005 4:46PM

who deserves this cash? the answer is the person who sold the 2 coins to the dealer, or perhaps the person before him. the dealer sure doesnt deserve the cut, and neither do you. what would i do? i'd go to the dealer and ask if he knew who sold it. i'd try and track him down at the show, and offer him one coin for half the cash he was paid. everyone would be happy. dealer makes 3k profit, you get a coin at half price, and original seller gets 1.5x original price.

getting screwed on a deal and having money float out of nowhere are 2 different things.

if i find a 100 dollar bill on the ground in a restaurant, ill try to figure out who is searching the ground frantically..... but im not gonna hand it over to the manager of the restaurant

construct · December 16, 2005 5:21PM

No. I'm not obligated to return the coin to the dealer.

Conder101 · December 16, 2005 6:31PM

I would not return it to the dealer. He bought the "package" and he sold the "package" to me. The other coin in the holder no longer belongs to him. If anyone deserves it, it would be the person who sold it to the dealer. But of course he sold it as a "package" to the dealer. So the initial seller is a possible but he doesn't have a strong claim on it either. And If I don't know who they were and had no way to track them, I guess I'm stuck with the coin.

cho10 · December 16, 2005 6:47PM

<< You're at a coin show talking to a respectable coin dealer that you've just met. Somebody walks up to his table and offers his a nice uncirculated 1916-D Dime in a Capital Plastics holder. They haggle over the price, he buys it for 15K CASH, and the seller walks away. You ask to see the coin and ask for a price. He quotes 18K and you write him a check. When you get the coin home, you open the holder and two coins fall out! Amazingly, there are TWO 1916-D dimes! The pair is worth about $36,000! What do you do? Are you obligated to return one of the coins to the dealer? >>

Strange things do happen and somebody may well be crying over a missing 1916-D. The buyer is not at fault legally if he keeps the 2 coins.

Everybody else can behave the way they see fit and can live with as far as I am concerned.

Nobody with a conscience would keep an $18K coin obtained through somebody else's mistake. I collect coins with the same ethical appraoch I run my businesses with. I don't screw people wittingly (or unwittingly if I can avoid it).

TorinoCobra71 · December 16, 2005 7:37PM

There is nothing to do, you just doubled your money, Call it a LUCKY day.......oh yeah get them slabbed!

TorinoCobra71

UncleJoe · December 16, 2005 8:30PM

The sale was for one 1916-D. The dealer delivered two. The dealer is entitled to get one back. (how many would actually do that?)

However, the dealer now has that same obligation, he bought one but received two. He should make some attempt to set things right with the original seller and so on and so on.

Joe.

Fairlaneman · December 16, 2005 9:32PM

Two coins will fit in a Capital Plastics holder ? I have a rough time getting one in correctly. This deal was done by the Curly, Mo and Andy ?

Ken

fcloud · December 16, 2005 9:54PM

If the dealer would pay the original seller for the second coin, then I would say return it. If the dealer would simply resell without contacting the original buyer, I would keep it or try to find the original seller. I love this kind of stuff. It was okay for the dealer to do a poor job in purchasing the coin(s), but somehow the buyer is a bad person because he/she gets a deal where the dealer made all the profit they needed. The dealer should have removed the coin(s) from the holder in front of the seller, when the two coins fell out, he should have paid for two coins. Again, if the dealer would return one coin to the original seller, I say return it. If the dealer would simply resell it and laugh in your face, keep it.

ms70 · December 16, 2005 9:58PM

It's not really different than if you found the coin laying in a parking lot. I'd keep it.

cho10 · December 16, 2005 10:16PM

<< If the dealer would pay the original seller for the second coin, then I would say return it. If the dealer would simply resell without contacting the original buyer, I would keep it or try to find the original seller. I love this kind of stuff. It was okay for the dealer to do a poor job in purchasing the coin(s), but somehow the buyer is a bad person because he/she gets a deal where the dealer made all the profit they needed. The dealer should have removed the coin(s) from the holder in front of the seller, when the two coins fell out, he should have paid for two coins. Again, if the dealer would return one coin to the original seller, I say return it. If the dealer would simply resell it and laugh in your face, keep it. >>

What about calling the seller informing him about the incident and suggestiung a meeting with the original seller?

Of course much depends on how many people have unwittingly sold 2 coins instead of one prior to the coin holder being purchased by the dealer.
It does seem a bit wierd though as 1916-D dimes are so rare.
I guess strange things do happen.

mercurydimeguy · December 16, 2005 10:18PM

Andy, you're getting way ahead of the curve doing research this far in advance

au58 · December 16, 2005 10:20PM

The conditions of sale were identical in both transactions. Why is the dealer entitled to the windfall??

jdimmick · December 16, 2005 10:28PM

What If thier were two dimes inside: and once opened you discovered it was a 16-P obverse and a 17-d reverse? Is that dealer going to beleive you and if so, would he re-imburse you the 18k. I suspect your larger national dealers would , but many would not.

MrEureka · December 16, 2005 11:15PM

Andy, you're getting way ahead of the curve doing research this far in advance

Last time, HRH got pissed when I flooded the boards with hypotheticals for a day. I won't make the same mistake twice. I'll spread them out over a few months.

MrEureka · December 16, 2005 11:17PM

In this case, I'll argue that neither dealer is entitled to the coin until all efforts to find the original seller are exhausted. After all, it's his coin. Once it's clear the original seller can't be found, it's "finders keepers", you found the coin and you get to keep it.

LanLord · December 16, 2005 11:19PM

My question is this:

Why in this example is the dealer not held in any responsibility, it was the heirs that were in a hurry to sell that were at fault

but in this example, the dealer wasn't in a hurry and the buyer should go back and split with the dealer?

BigD5 · December 17, 2005 12:14AM

That respectable dealer seems to have tendencies of an idiot. You keep two coins. Your conscious may keep you from doing so, but after a day to think about it, you'll keep the coins.

longtimecollector · December 17, 2005 1:07AM

With MY luck, the obverse dime would be a 16-P, and the reverse dime a 17-D

anablep · December 17, 2005 1:19AM

I'd probably keep them both.

The real loser here is the original seller of the coin(s).

I'd also suspect that an attentive dealer would remove the coin from a Capitol holder (if possible) and examine it more closely before buying it and reselling it.

homerunhall · December 17, 2005 3:12AM

I doubt that two 1916-D Mercury dimes would ever come out of a capital plastic holder as described by Andy's more-than-hypothetical hypothetical. However, I have personally seen the following happen (a long time ago, in a galaxy far away.)

Elderly man walks into a coin shop and has a 1916-D dime XF or so in a Capital plastic holder. Man quotes the dealer an atrractive but semi-significant price...just enough for it to be a bargain. Dealer briefly examines coin, haggles a little and pays cash for coin. Elderly man leaves with his green. Dealer takes coin out of Capital plastic holder...but two coins come out...a 1916-P which had been facing obverse up, and a 1944-D which had been facing reverse up..
True story.

hrh

markglicker · December 17, 2005 3:27AM

Neither. I m not going to pay $15,000 for any uncertified 1916-D Dime, unless I have a microscope with me, or the guy who posted before me, checks it first.

originalisbest · December 17, 2005 3:33AM

Not only do I believe your story, Mr. Hall, that is exactly how I heard it (albeit with less details.) Just because someone is a nice and sweet little old lady or gent doesn't mean they aren't also entirely dishonest.

fcloud · December 17, 2005 3:40AM

David,

I guess I could see that happening, but there are only four reverse dies used. I would think every dealer out the would know those reverse dies.

originalisbest · December 17, 2005 3:43AM

Greed, inexperience and/or lack of paying attention. I wonder what would happen if the dealer had started to fiddle with the screws to get a better look at the piece? Maybe the old guy would've put on a show/huff and snatch his coin back, or just bolt (that is, if an old guy can bolt.)

jdsinva · December 17, 2005 4:03AM

This hypothetical question must be intended for the collectors who can afford to plop down $15-18K on an uncertified coin and not think twice. To me, spending a couple hundred on a coin is alot of money and buying a $1K coin requires lay-a-way with my local dealer. But to answer the question, the coin(s) has obviously changed hands several times and no one was actually smart enough to take the coin out and examin a tough key date coin? I'm keeping them both.

MikeJessie1 · December 17, 2005 4:19AM

I think the question is, would the dealer ask for one back?

tincup · December 17, 2005 4:35AM

The dealer in not 'entitled' to receive anything back. He sold it just as he bought it. Any 'risk' or 'bonus' was borne by you as the purchaser.

If anyone is entitled to receiving the extra coin back, it is the original seller of the items to the dealer. If you know who this is, and are so inclined to do so, by all means return the extra to them if it is at all possible. But you are under no obligation.

There was no deceit anywhere in this transaction, so there are no further obligations. I would keep the coin.

sellsatan · December 17, 2005 4:43AM

<< I guess I could see that happening, but there are only four reverse dies used. I would think every dealer out the would know those reverse dies. >>

- fcloud

That's giving a lot of credit to somebody's numismatic knowledge just because they happen to sell coins.

PTVETTER · December 17, 2005 5:19AM

I need one for my mercury dime set so since you now have an extra 1916-D dime paid for one and have two I will send you my address

UncleJoe · December 17, 2005 5:47AM

There was no deceit anywhere in this transaction, so there are no further obligations.

So I assume that when a cashier gives you two bills stuck together, that you wouldn't return one of those either.

Joe.

fcloud · December 17, 2005 6:49AM

<< That's giving a lot of credit to somebody's numismatic knowledge just because they happen to sell coins. >>

Good point. I guess coin dealers and numismatists are not the same thing.

ziggy29 · December 17, 2005 6:56AM

I'm every bit as entitled to the second coin as the dealer, IMO, if we both intended to buy one coin. The entity getting shafted is the original seller.

If there was no way to track down the original seller, I'd be inclined to try to work out a deal to sell the second coin and split the proceeds with the dealer. I'd still feel like I cheated someone, but if there's no way to track down the original seller, I don't know what else to do.

dunerlaw · December 17, 2005 11:29AM

First I would track down the original seller no matter how long or how much it cost.
Then I would give her $15,000 minus my time and costs.
Then I would give the dealer $3,000 minus my time and costs.
Then I would drink a beer.
Then I would submit the coins to NGC.
Then cross them to PCGS. (after 4 submissions)
Then I would wait a few years.
Then upgrade them via gradeflation.
Then sell them at auction.
Then I would retire.

Fairlaneman · December 17, 2005 11:47AM

<< I doubt that two 1916-D Mercury dimes would ever come out of a capital plastic holder as described by Andy's more-than-hypothetical hypothetical. However, I have personally seen the following happen (a long time ago, in a galaxy far away.)

Elderly man walks into a coin shop and has a 1916-D dime XF or so in a Capital plastic holder. Man quotes the dealer an atrractive but semi-significant price...just enough for it to be a bargain. Dealer briefly examines coin, haggles a little and pays cash for coin. Elderly man leaves with his green. Dealer takes coin out of Capital plastic holder...but two coins come out...a 1916-P which had been facing obverse up, and a 1944-D which had been facing reverse up..
True story.

hrh >>

This dealer was really out to lunch. A very quick check of the reverse without even looking at the Mint Mark would have told him something was very wrong. All Mercs after 1926 are missing a part of the branches that come out from underneath the middle band area. That is something that should be checked on all 16D's and 21's.

Ken

ILikeDimes · December 17, 2005 1:12PM

<< There was no deceit anywhere in this transaction, so there are no further obligations.

So I assume that when a cashier gives you two bills stuck together, that you wouldn't return one of those either.

Joe. >>

wrong.....He KNOWS who gave him the extra dollar........he DOESN'T know who the original owner of the Capital set was!

Hypothetical #2 - 1916-D Dime

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