NEN as a verb.

coinpictures

As in "I'm NENding money like there's no tomorrow..."

NEN didn't accept my initial offer on this one, but they came back with a counteroffer that was quite reasonable, so I NENt more money.

I NENt more than Krause UNC, but KM doesn't have a BU column for these. Where does Spink (a book I'm obviously going to have to obtain) price this in 60/65?

Great Britain 1d, 1848/7. NGC MS65BN. An overdate to boot. (I'm assuming the stuff on the neck is on the slab and not the coin)

1jester

Nice NEN there!

spinaker2000

My 2004 Spink has that at 135 pounds for UNC, I think those prices are for red unc's.

ajaan

MY 2005 Spinks has it at £110 in Unc.

ajaan

hmmm . . . a decrease in value. How strange.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>My 2004 Spink has that at 135 pounds for UNC, I think those prices are for red unc's. >>



I'll pay either quote for choice-gem "red" uncs in bag quantity......

This Spink quote for UNC., and RED is stupid as "choice red unc. anything" copper is virtually a pipe-dream in Victorian pre-1860 coppers..........

coinpictures

So is "BU" (talking about pricing, UNC vs. BU) a red versus brown thing or a 60 vs. 65 thing?

For example, predecimal.com's price guide lists the coin in 150 pounds for UNC and unpriced in BU (other similar dates are 225 pounds in BU).

So what constitutes a BU rather than an UNC? Is it a subjective aesthetic determination?

Does a coin being brown automatically disqualify it from ever being "BU"?

I know we're back to the red vs. brown thing, but I've seen plenty of red coppers, called technically "BU" because of their redness, that are far less attractive then similar brown coins. Is the former considered BU for pricing purposes, but not the latter?

It will be decades before I ever consider selling any of these recent NEN acquisitions (hopefully it's after I'm dead and gone), so I'm not overly concerned about recouping the investment; I'm just curious how everyone thinks with respect to grading/pricing coppers, and is there an accepted norm?

shirohniichan

anything" copper is virtually a pipe-dream in Victorian pre-1860 coppers..........

My pencil eraser will prove you wrong!

MacCrimmon

<< <i>So is "BU" (talking about pricing, UNC vs. BU) a red versus brown thing or a 60 vs. 65 thing?

For example, predecimal.com's price guide lists the coin in 150 pounds for UNC and unpriced in BU (other similar dates are 225 pounds in BU).

So what constitutes a BU rather than an UNC? Is it a subjective aesthetic determination?

Does a coin being brown automatically disqualify it from ever being "BU"?

I know we're back to the red vs. brown thing, but I've seen plenty of red coppers, called technically "BU" because of their redness, that are far less attractive then similar brown coins. Is the former considered BU for pricing purposes, but not the latter?

It will be decades before I ever consider selling any of these recent NEN acquisitions (hopefully it's after I'm dead and gone), so I'm not overly concerned about recouping the investment; I'm just curious how everyone thinks with respect to grading/pricing coppers, and is there an accepted norm? >>




Brits will grade as UNC. with "some lustre", "good lustre", or "full lustre". The same for BU, if they essentially "exist" for that date. They do not break them out as Unc., choice unc., or gem unc. with the appropriate colour designation. At least you'll never see them priced that way in a "guide".

Ask yourself, "Why would Spink not want to delineate in this fashion?" Well, they are buyers of British coins. Or, conversely, why explicitly trust a "guide" which is published by a market-maker in a given 'product'? Excuse my cynical nature here, but it does beg the question.

NEN is a very good source for choice and better British/Darkside. Might I suggest that anyone interested in the "true" market price levels of different British denominations; track the condition(s)/TPGs grade/asking price/how long did it take to sell?

If it vanishes overnight, you might assume it sold for 95-100% of the ASK; if it lingers for a few months, assume 90-95% depending on price level and rarity, and if it lasts 6 months to 1 year, then maybe the market is only 70-80% of the original ASK, or less. Compare these prices to Spink. How close? What was the grade/difficulty of the piece in question? Build your knowledge/pricing base from there.

When you are seeing "red" coppers, I'm assuming you really mean the bronze pieces minted in 1860 and afterwards (these can be found from time to time). Few, if any, of the pure copper (pre-1860s) young head designs can be found in 80% red or better, choice or better unc. no fingerprints, and no obtrusive freckles or ugly spots.

Shiro!!

cosmicdebris

Gorgeous copper

SYRACUSIAN

Everything that Mac says sounds so true, although I have zero experience with Victoria, but my field is similar and worse. It's supposed slightly ironic I guess to consider even a glossy full brown 65 as a BU, I believe the brilliant applies to red or allmost full red, or full /almost full luster, call it whatever you want. Undoubtedly some choice brown coins are infinetely better looking than splotchy red brown examples, but I don't think brown can qualify as BU even if the fields are of prooflike quality.


edited to add that I have often seen red brown examples in BN NGC holders lately, usually with a gift point for the trace red that is not enough to make the coin RB

coinpictures

<< <i>
Brits will grade as UNC. with "some lustre", "good lustre", or "full lustre". The same for BU, if they essentially "exist" for that date. They do not break them out as Unc., choice unc., or gem unc. with the appropriate colour designation. At least you'll never see them priced that way in a "guide".

Ask yourself, "Why would Spink not want to delineate in this fashion?" Well, they are buyers of British coins. Or, conversely, why explicitly trust a "guide" which is published by a market-maker in a given 'product'? Excuse my cynical nature here, but it does beg the question.

NEN is a very good source for choice and better British/Darkside. Might I suggest that anyone interested in the "true" market price levels of different British denominations; track the condition(s)/TPGs grade/asking price/how long did it take to sell?

If it vanishes overnight, you might assume it sold for 95-100% of the ASK; if it lingers for a few months, assume 90-95% depending on price level and rarity, and if it lasts 6 months to 1 year, then maybe the market is only 70-80% of the original ASK, or less. Compare these prices to Spink. How close? What was the grade/difficulty of the piece in question? Build your knowledge/pricing base from there.

When you are seeing "red" coppers, I'm assuming you really mean the bronze pieces minted in 1860 and afterwards (these can be found from time to time). Few, if any, of the pure copper (pre-1860s) young head designs can be found in 80% red or better, choice or better unc. no fingerprints, and no obtrusive freckles or ugly spots.

Shiro!! >>



Thanks for the information; it seems like there's a lot of compilation/tracking of sales data to be done...

So as a general rule, do folks find NEN's asking prices to be high or about right, compared with what you're likely to find at auction or other dealers? Many of their coins just fly away at full ask, before there's even an option to negotiate. By waiting to negotiate, sometimes you miss out on some gorgeous pieces.

I'll admit, I'm a complete and utter novice when it comes to gauging whether or not these coins are "good deals" or not. I've mostly gone by Krause over the years but am now coming to the rude awakening that Krause is overpriced in some areas (Germany, Swiss) and underpriced in others (Russia, Great Britain).

If you go by Krause, then I have paid too much for just about every single coin I've ever bought from NEN. It's almost as if you're closer to the truth by taking the Krause price and making it pounds instead of dollars (for British coins).

When it comes to making offers on NEN coins, it's hard to discern a pattern of what they will accept and what they won't.

Here's a rundown of the coins I've purchased/negotiated with NEN:

1844 1/2 Farthing, NGC MS64BN. $79 (no negotiation available; Krause = $65 in UNC)

1847 1/2 Farthing, NGC MS64BN. $95 (no negotiation available; Krause = $70 in UNC)

1854 1/2 Farthing, NGC MS66BN, $225 (no negotiation available; Krause = $175 in UNC)

1844 1/3 Farthing, NGC MS63BN 5% Clip, (NEN Ask was $295; I offered $195; accepted by NEN. Krause = $250 in UNC)

1854 1/2d, NGC MS62BN, (NEN Ask was $69; I offered $44; lowest they would go is $60; Krause = $90 in UNC)

1855 1/2d, NGC MS64BN, (NEN Ask was $139; I offered $95, was rejected with no counteroffer. Purchased by one of our members here. Krause = $90 in UNC)

1891 1d, NGC MS64BN (the Rapunzel coin), (NEN Ask was $159; I offered $109; accepted by NEN; Krause = $125 in UNC)

1848/7 1d, NGC MS65BN (the above coin), (NEN Ask was $295; I offered $195; NEN counteroffered $235; I accepted; Krause = $145 in UNC)

1839 1/4 Farthing, NGC MS64RB (gorgeous purple toned coin I posted last week), $195 (no negotiation available; Krause = $150 in UNC)


Obviously, a few of the pieces were so gorgeous that I opted to buy them right then and there rather than wait the week(s) for negotiation to become available; I'd sooner overNENd a bit than miss out on the coins (especially true of the 1839 1/4 farthing and the 1854 1/2 farthing).

MacCrimmon

<< <i>Thanks for the information; it seems like there's a lot of compilation/tracking of sales data to be done...

So as a general rule, do folks find NEN's asking prices to be high or about right, compared with what you're likely to find at auction or other dealers? Many of their coins just fly away at full ask, before there's even an option to negotiate. By waiting to negotiate, sometimes you miss out on some gorgeous pieces.

I'll admit, I'm a complete and utter novice when it comes to gauging whether or not these coins are "good deals" or not. I've mostly gone by Krause over the years but am now coming to the rude awakening that Krause is overpriced in some areas (Germany, Swiss) and underpriced in others (Russia, Great Britain).

If you go by Krause, then I have paid too much for just about every single coin I've ever bought from NEN. It's almost as if you're closer to the truth by taking the Krause price and making it pounds instead of dollars (for British coins).

When it comes to making offers on NEN coins, it's hard to discern a pattern of what they will accept and what they won't.

Here's a rundown of the coins I've purchased/negotiated with NEN (Spink 2006 Prices in BOLD as £EF/UNC [EF being an AU55/58/61 type coin]

1844 1/2 Farthing, NGC MS64BN. $79 (no negotiation available; Krause = $65 in UNC) -- Spink £70

1847 1/2 Farthing, NGC MS64BN. $95 (no negotiation available; Krause = $70 in UNC) -- Spink £95

1854 1/2 Farthing, NGC MS66BN, $225 (no negotiation available; Krause = $175 in UNC) -- Spink £170

1844 1/3 Farthing, NGC MS63BN 5% Clip, (NEN Ask was $295; I offered $195; accepted by NEN. Krause = $250 in UNC) -- Spink £235

1854 1/2d, NGC MS62BN, (NEN Ask was $69; I offered $44; lowest they would go is $60; Krause = $90 in UNC) -- Spink £30/105

1855 1/2d, NGC MS64BN, (NEN Ask was $139; I offered $95, was rejected with no counteroffer. Purchased by one of our members here. Krause = $90 in UNC) -- Spink £105

1891 1d, NGC MS64BN (the Rapunzel coin), (NEN Ask was $159; I offered $109; accepted by NEN; Krause = $125 in UNC) -- Spink £40/150

1848/7 1d, NGC MS65BN (the above coin), (NEN Ask was $295; I offered $195; NEN counteroffered $235; I accepted; Krause = $145 in UNC) -- Spink £80/200

1839 1/4 Farthing, NGC MS64RB (gorgeous purple toned coin I posted last week), $195 (no negotiation available; Krause = $150 in UNC) -- Spink £45/110


Obviously, a few of the pieces were so gorgeous that I opted to buy them right then and there rather than wait the week(s) for negotiation to become available; I'd sooner overNENd a bit than miss out on the coins (especially true of the 1839 1/4 farthing and the 1854 1/2 farthing). >>




See my Spink quotes above from the 2006 book. You will find Spink closer to being consistent in pricing across all dates; as well, you are usually better served using a price guide from the "Home" country than a yellow book of the World, IMO anyway. Of course, watching and being involved in actual transaction data, auction results, etc. yields the best results. One caveat, you must know the "real" grade of the coin in question to really quantify it's price.

Your 48/7 is a nice looking copper, and I definitely prefer a nice glossy brown, or "blue", or "violet" patina on a copper which has smooth surfaces and no spots, or ubiquitous fingerprints.....but, I'll take a cherry red spotless copper or bronze too, or even an wild rainbow iridescent RB.....

spinaker2000

I think you did great on the one's you got by negotiating. NEN went lower than I expected them to on a few. As far as doing better at auctions and dealers. Most dealers don't have the volume of nice stuff NEN comes up with on a weekly basis. And auctions?? NEN is a bidder too!

MacCrimmon

<< <i>I think you did great on the one's you got by negotiating. NEN went lower than I expected them to on a few. As far as doing better at auctions and dealers. Most dealers don't have the volume of nice stuff NEN comes up with on a weekly basis. And auctions?? NEN is a bidder too! >>



Ah grasshopper, you've hit on a way to save even more dosh!!

SYRACUSIAN

Coinpictures, this is one of the most informative posts I have read, thanks for sharing such delicate information. I'm sure NEN valued you as a customer too,took into consideration the volume of your transactions during a short period of time and went ahead with some great discounts that I wasn't aware they were capable of.

coinpictures

<< <i>Coinpictures, this is one of the most informative posts I have read, thanks for sharing such delicate information. I'm sure NEN valued you as a customer too,took into consideration the volume of your transactions during a short period of time and went ahead with some great discounts that I wasn't aware they were capable of. >>



Glad it serves some purpose.

I don't consider the information delicate. If people want to know what I've paid for a given coin, I'm more than happy to tell them. If I were planning to sell coins in the near future, I'd be more closemouthed about it. If it helps people get a feel for what things can sell for, so much the better.

I'm sure that I've overpaid for some of the pieces compared to what other people have paid. Doesn't bother me. If I waited for primo pieces to appear at bargain basement prices, I'd never have any coins. These types of coins don't show up locally or on Ebay with less-then-half-of-Krause BIN prices.

I'm not comfortable buying these coins raw. At least with NEN, you're getting attractive certified pieces. They don't have too many dogs; as a general rule, their merchandise is quite aesthetically pleasing, and in many cases jaw-dropping.

CIVITAS

An interesting breakdown on those coins and some nice purchases.

Now I just need to figure out how to get people to CIVITAS more money.....

coinpictures

Some more NEN negotiation results:

Great Britain 1d, 1858 LD, no WW. NGC MS64BN. (exceptional blue toning). Krause: UNC - $175. Spink: UNC - 175 pounds

NEN asking price: $295. My offer: $160. NEN counteroffer: $225. My counteroffer: $180. NEN counteroffer: $215 firm. Accepted. (Had I been smarter, I would have checked and seen that the coin had not sold at the minimum bid of $199, and saved myself $16 in the process). It's a beautiful enough coin that I don't mind.

Great Britain 1d, 1876-H. NGC MS64 BN. Krause: UNC - $200. Spink: UNC - 200 pounds.

NEN asking price: $249. My offer: $165. NEN counteroffer: $175. Accepted.

NOTE TO SELF: Before opening negotiations on NEN coins, check to see if the coin has previously appeared on Ebay and not sold. D'oh!

spinaker2000

SYRACUSIAN

I nominate this thread for a DPOTD. Better late than never. Unusual and very informative.

wybrit

Great Britain 1d, 1876-H. NGC MS64 BN. Krause: UNC - $200. Spink: UNC - 200 pounds.

Be careful about the Spink UNC prices. Spink prices are for fully red examples, so you would have to scale the price back accordingly for a BN example. Also, in the case of 1876H, there are two die pair combinations, one is worth double the other.

coinpictures

<< <i>Great Britain 1d, 1876-H. NGC MS64 BN. Krause: UNC - $200. Spink: UNC - 200 pounds.

Be careful about the Spink UNC prices. Spink prices are for fully red examples, so you would have to scale the price back accordingly for a BN example. Also, in the case of 1876H, there are two die pair combinations, one is worth double the other. >>



Then Spink is effectively useless, IMO. Why? In the last 6 months of watching NEN, Ebay, and other auctions and dealers, I have yet to see a single Victorian copper that qualifies as fully red. Zero, zilch, nada, zippo, nyet, none. Some RBs, yes. But fully red, no.

What good is a price guide that sets is UNC pricing based on .1% of the available population? I might as well just use Krause and be done with it.

Also, I don't see online dealers scaling down anything from Spink for BNs and RBs. My guess is that if a true RD does show up, it would go above Spink. I have no idea what happens at live auctions; I'm just commenting based on what I see at set price dealers...

As far as the die pairs, I'm aware of the two combinations. I'm assuming the coin is the more common of the two.