Is NGC this far off.... (Photo Update)

Trinketts · December 10, 2005 3:10AM

I cracked out a few coins from NGC holders and sent them to PCGS

On my returns I had a 1934 Washington Quarter come back a MS63 was in a NGC MS66

A MS62 1883 Shield Nickel was graded AU58

Is NGC really that bad or is PCGS really that tight...

I was really boggled by some others as well

Darkmane · December 10, 2005 3:15AM

a little bit of both... and some bad luck

Trinketts · December 10, 2005 3:17AM

Honestly luck should not be a factor in grading a coin... I can see missing a grade one point, but 3!!!!

Bunker · December 10, 2005 3:17AM

a little bit of both... and some bad luck

Deadhorse · December 10, 2005 3:17AM

I suspect more of one than the other.

I have a few coins in now. When they get back, I'll be able to add some data to this observation.

roadrunner · December 10, 2005 3:27AM

I've had a number of 2 point shifts between NGC and PCGS but never 3 points in the MS62-MS67 ranges. No doubt PCGS was brutual and NGC gift-giving. More than likely the coin is a 64/65.
3 point differences in the upper MS ranges are indeed far and few between, at least on type coins. Though I think I can see this being more likely for post-1930 coinage. We already know that PCGS as a rule grades a 1 pt tougher in the 65-67 range on Washingtons. So you probably have a 2 pt variation swing coupled with the 1 pt of tightness that PCGS is known for on REGISTRY moderns.

roadrunner

100proof1957 · December 10, 2005 3:32AM

A little of both !

Dont get discoureged (sic)

High grade stuff is not crossing right now,lower grade stuff will (ie: F,XF,VF)

PCGS is soo tight you couldnt pound a toothpick up the wazzoo with a sledge hammer !

Rampage · December 10, 2005 3:57AM

I think NGC has been a little lax on their grading lately. Of course, I could be incorrect in my observation.

Trinketts · December 10, 2005 4:15AM

You can see people are losing faith in NGC look at any early NGC MS67 Lincoln Cent, they sell for well below what a PCGS MS67 will, especially on teletrade..

jom · December 10, 2005 4:30AM

>>>>>A MS62 1883 Shield Nickel was graded AU58

This is not really "3 grade points". These grades are FAR closer than a 63 to 66. These depend heavily on how the grade interprets RUB. Sometimes it's market graded other times not.

>>>>On my returns I had a 1934 Washington Quarter come back a MS63 was in a NGC MS66

This one is far more disturbing. Was the coin toned nicely so that NGC jacked up the grade? Any pics?

The bigger question might be: What did YOU think the coin graded? Were you far off on the grade?

jom

brccoins · December 10, 2005 4:41AM

pics on the washington would help, and like Jom said what would you grade it?

MadMarty · December 10, 2005 5:08AM

<< I cracked out a few coins from NGC holders and sent them to PCGS

>>

That's what you get when you whack them on the face of the slab with a hammer to open them!!!

JRocco · December 10, 2005 5:39AM

I agree that a 66 to a 63 is huge. There is no way any professional grader could not tell the difference between a 66 and a 63 with a blindfold on just by touch. A 5 to a 4 or a 6 to a 5---oh well, but a 6 to a 3 is two different coins. A baseball card grader could tell the difference.
One of the 2 companies should owe you a detailed explanation.

Freak1c · December 10, 2005 5:42AM

Don't feel bad. I have seen coins in a PCGS holder that I question as well. Remember grading is subjective.

Tom

ziggy29 · December 10, 2005 5:47AM

There may be some difference in general, but not that much. I think you also have to consider that PCGS has been ridiculously tight recently. A couple of years ago, what NGC called a 66 might be a PCGS 65. But since they've tightened, not so much.

NGC has tightened in the high grades as well. I doubt NGC would grade it a 66 again if submitted raw today.

As for the shield nickel, a true, conservatively graded 58 and a market-graded 62 are almost the same thing in terms of value and market perception. It shouldn't be -- either there's rub or there isn't -- but it's a fact of life in the world of TPGs.

Deadhorse · December 10, 2005 5:55AM

<< Don't feel bad. I have seen coins in a PCGS holder that I question as well. Remember grading is subjective. >>

"Subjective" is a term used far too loosely. Like a dab of spackle and coat of paint, it hides a lot of faults and cheaply covers mistakes.

64-65, 65-66 is subjective. PR66-PR67 is subjective. Wide spreads are not subjective. One coin is too small a sample to draw a conclusion from. Over time, if the same is true for many coins, then one can draw a conclusion.

Edited by: Speelchunker

GAT · December 10, 2005 6:03AM

Take that 1883 Shield AU-58 grade with a grain of salt. I have a 1935 Walker that was cracked out and resubmitted that also came back AU-58. AU my rear end, it's a BU coin.

BECOKA · December 10, 2005 6:10AM

I agree that if re-submitted to NGC it might have come back lower than originally graded. This would only give a 1 or 2 point difference instead of 3.

I just submitted 2 half eagles for cross over from NGC to PCGS. 1 was an AU53 and the other an AU58. Niether one crossed. One was labled as thumbed and not sure why the other did not cross. Beleive it or not I have never had trouble crossing ANACS, usually grade for grade and I have done MS62 down all in gold.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 10, 2005 6:20AM

NGC is not that far off, but keep in mind there really are more than TWO SIDES 2 A COIN

Trinketts · December 10, 2005 7:00AM

I will get pics when the coin comes back from PCGS

The 1934 Washington was not toned so NGC did not give it points for that reason...

I still don't get it...

3 points is just way too much

fc · December 10, 2005 7:22AM

when it comes to half eagles, ngc is way too generous.

but that is the one series i look at A LOT. I can safely say this.

others may disagree, but I have seen way to many examples while
PCGS's are farther apart per sighting.

TomB · December 10, 2005 7:33AM

You still haven't answered what you thought the proper grade was for the Washington quarter and this would help a bit. As for PCGS vs NGC, they both screw up and they both have drifting standards. A classic example is of a common date silver Washington quarter that I owned in both NGC and PCGS plastic. The coin was graded MS67 by NGC and I sent it into PCGS to cross where they refused to cross it and said it was an MS66. Keep in mind the NGC slab was pristine so that the viewing of the coin was unobstructed. I then wrote a letter to PCGS management that PCGS blew the grade and that if PCGS could honestly tell me why the coin was less than an MS67 that I would never complain. The coin went back to PCGS where it graded MS67. Subsequently, the coin was broken out of the PCGS holder and sent into PCGS raw where it graded MS68.

So, a single silver Washington quarter graded MS67 by NGC then MS66 by PCGS then MS67 by PCGS then MS68 by PCGS all within about a year. Perhaps your 1934 Washington would re-grade MS64 or MS65 by PCGS if submitted again.

mercurydimeguy · December 10, 2005 8:44AM

What about a mechanical error...or human error?

I've had a coin I sent in for regrading (where there is a guarantee that PCGS won't grade it lower). The coin was a 67FB. When the grades posted the coin was a 66 (no bands). After I got the grades I then got on the phone with a CSR and she looked in to the problem. She called me back and she was pleased that it wasn't a big deal, as she stated it. It was just an error someone made when they were putting in the cert#'s and told me she should have thought of that first because it happens frequently (although they typically catch it).

The above story is not a fabrication -- it happened to me and I have a number of people who were wintnesses.

Since that time, for a multitude of reasons, I've wondered how many gift coins are actually gift coins or just an error that a low level person made when he/she was entering numbers. Conversely, how many coins are judged by us as being graded too tightly when it could have been just a manual input error -- perhaps the coin that was the NGC 66 really graded a 66 and someone that was reentering the information for printing/posting of grades hit the 3 accidentally (it's just under the 6 on the keypad).

The sick thing is -- the only way to find out is to pay them to regrade it again because as I've discussed before this business model (TPG) has no enforceable control mechanisms.

FanOfModerns · December 10, 2005 10:44AM

<< I cracked out a few coins from NGC holders and sent them to PCGS

On my returns I had a 1934 Washington Quarter come back a MS63 was in a NGC MS66

A MS62 1883 Shield Nickel was graded AU58

Is NGC really that bad or is PCGS really that tight...

I was really boggled by some others as well >>

This is why you buy PCGS coins only!! They are the best!!

anablep · December 10, 2005 10:49AM

I have said this many times... NGC is not what it is "cracked up" to be.

All NGC Morgans I've submitted and had graded by ANACS came back lower, by 2 points at times.

Never has a PCGS slabbed coin been submitted and graded by ANACS at a lower or higher grade. They've been dead on.

As was stated, you've ran in to bad luck, but NGC is not accurate in their grading of my Morgans, IMHO.

BlindedByEgo · December 10, 2005 10:49AM

<< 

<< I cracked out a few coins from NGC holders and sent them to PCGS

On my returns I had a 1934 Washington Quarter come back a MS63 was in a NGC MS66

A MS62 1883 Shield Nickel was graded AU58

Is NGC really that bad or is PCGS really that tight...

I was really boggled by some others as well >>

This is why you buy PCGS coins only!! They are the best!! >>

Suckup

tradedollarnut · December 10, 2005 10:53AM

This is why you buy PCGS coins only!! They are the best!!

The coin was graded MS67 by NGC

Subsequently, the coin was broken out of the PCGS holder and sent into PCGS raw where it graded MS68.

Uh, huh.

There are overgrades, proper grades and undergrades in both PCGS and NGC holders. The trick is to buy the right ones

JRocco · December 10, 2005 10:54AM

<< 

<< I cracked out a few coins from NGC holders and sent them to PCGS

On my returns I had a 1934 Washington Quarter come back a MS63 was in a NGC MS66

A MS62 1883 Shield Nickel was graded AU58

Is NGC really that bad or is PCGS really that tight...

I was really boggled by some others as well >>

This is why you buy PCGS coins only!! They are the best!! >>

How do you define best FanOfModerns? Tough grading? Loose grading? ---How's about ACCURATE GRADING !!! ......

Trinketts · December 11, 2005 1:50AM

If I were grading the coin I would honestly put it at MS65...
Sorry I had forgotten to add that to my earlier post.

Dismeguy · December 11, 2005 2:02AM

I understand and feel your pain with these NGC regrade problems. I avoid NGC seated dimes as much as possible. PCGS grading standards (overall for seated dimes) are tighter than NGC. The percentage of doggy mint state coins in NGC holders is higher than with PCGS.

But just take a look at the upcoming Heritage auction....many more seated dimes in NGC holders than PCGS. PCGS coins stay off the market longer, and I suspect that NGC coins trade more often and eventually end up in a properly graded PCGS holder.

jom · December 11, 2005 2:55AM

TDN is right. You have to buy the right ones. In fact, that is really just another way of saying you buy the coin (you remember...that little metal disk thingy in the middle) and not the plastic.

As to who is "better". It seems that, based on Trinketts opinion of MS65, both services screwed up. The PCGS grade at 63 is just as bad as NGC grading it 66...if not worse.

jom

Baley · December 11, 2005 3:01AM

what was wrong with the old holders?

Trinketts · December 14, 2005 12:54PM

Finally got the coins back from PCGS.. Here is the infamous 1934 Washington that was in a NGC MS66 holder.

Wolf359 · December 14, 2005 1:05PM

64 to me.

TomB · December 14, 2005 1:35PM

To tell you the truth, I have specialized in Washington quarters for a loooooooong time and I can honestly say that I have seen scores of Washingtons that look just like the one you posted in NGC and PCGS slabs and graded from MS64 to MS66. The services are not that consistent with the types of hits that you seem to have on your coin. There are two marks in the cheek area and a stray mark in the field behind the portrait while the reverse looks exceptionally clean. The luster also looks above average. If those are the only issues with the coin then it is nicer than an MS63, but as I already wrote, both services will wobble with this coin.

VamCollector · December 14, 2005 1:37PM

Slightly O/T but not even PCGS gets it right or consistent every time.....submitted a nice (and rare) circulated Morgan to PCGS a couple of months ago....coin comes back in a BB....PCGS says "cleaned".....no way but who am I to disagree with the experts.....coin is then submitted to ANACS....slabs no problem.....coin is then re-submitted back to PCGS as a crossover in the ANACS holder......surprise......it crosses after PCGS takes a half grade deduction (AU50 to XF45). Cleaning should be even less subjective than grading yet they can't call the same coin correctly on two submissions.

michael · December 14, 2005 4:23PM

: Is NGC this far off.... (Photo Update)
Created On Saturday December 10, 2005 1:10 PM

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Trinketts
Senior Member

Posts: 313
Joined: Sep 2004
Saturday December 10, 2005 1:10 PM

I cracked out a few coins from NGC holders and sent them to PCGS

On my returns I had a 1934 Washington Quarter come back a MS63 was in a NGC MS66

A MS62 1883 Shield Nickel was graded AU58

Is NGC really that bad or is PCGS really that tight...

I was really boggled by some others as well

as per the above pcgs was brutal really tight on the washington quarter

and pcgs was right on for the au58 grade for the shield nick and ngc was bad on the nick as itis was a super slider

IN GENERAL NEVER NEVER!!!!!!!! BREAK MS 61 62 NGC COIN S OUT OF THEIR respective HOLDERS AND SUBMIT TO PCGS RAW YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS

Bear · December 14, 2005 5:17PM

On the other hand, I broke out a Bust Half in a NGC holder AU-53

and it came back PCGS AU-58. Go figure. I guessed that the coin would cross

and maybe go up to a AU-55.

mintluster · December 14, 2005 8:40PM

1934 quarter looks 63/64 to me, NGC was way off....

MrEureka · December 14, 2005 9:00PM

Trinketts - Now try resubmitting the coins to NGC. And then crack them again and send them back to PCGS! See what happens. Sure, you'll blow some grading fees, but this experiment will pay rich dividends over the years.

paigowjohnny · December 14, 2005 11:50PM

<< This is why you buy PCGS coins only!! They are the best!! >>

Pass some of that Kool Aid over here, please.

Is NGC this far off.... (Photo Update)

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