WELL....went to the local card shop today...
Lothar52
Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭
everything was WAY OVERPRICED....i mean is a box of the new football heritage hobby worth 100 bucks PLUS tax?? Not only that but i thought that stuff was 1 SP every 2 packs instead of one per pack like he claimed. Anyway he said he thought there was prolly only 1000 shops left in the country and if things didnt get better he would have to close the shop. I felt bad for him...i really really did.
.........but when i saw his vintage crap ungraded for like 50x what i could get a graded nice 55 card on ebay....i had to ask myself....whats the dealio???
it seems to me that EBAY has taken the power away from the dealer...who used to be able to hoard boxes and cases of supply and demand 15 bucks a pack of stuff like .......oh...........1991 stadium club baseball if I recall.....and put that power back into the collectors hand....now WE set the prices...not them.....
I feel strongly both ways....most do not conform to the change like this guy and as such....they die....
Loth
.........but when i saw his vintage crap ungraded for like 50x what i could get a graded nice 55 card on ebay....i had to ask myself....whats the dealio???
it seems to me that EBAY has taken the power away from the dealer...who used to be able to hoard boxes and cases of supply and demand 15 bucks a pack of stuff like .......oh...........1991 stadium club baseball if I recall.....and put that power back into the collectors hand....now WE set the prices...not them.....
I feel strongly both ways....most do not conform to the change like this guy and as such....they die....
Loth
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I love to see shops closing.
Loves me some shiny!
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
I remember back in 1989 when Upper Deck was the new hot thing and dealers were taking advantage of a great information gap and "ripping the faces" off consumers. What a pack cost in one shop could be much different in another shop. And how dare you complain as a consumer because the response was usually, "If you don't like it, go someplace else."
Today, the response is much different of course, and most prices in shops are the same due to eBay. Of course, seasonal and geographical differences do apply, but for the most part, the market is much more efficient than it was before the Internet. So, to all of the greedy shop owners who thought they had a monopoly on the market and offered you $.10 on the dollar for your card to cover expenses, yada, yada, yada, I say "karma can be a bleach"
However, it is sad to see shops disappear as some shop owners were truly nice guys who cared about the industry. Also, how can you not fall in love with the smell of all the cardboard and sights within the display cases? Kind of reminds me of the corner pharmacy and how a part of tradition was lost when Walgreen's, etc. took over.
Overall, let the markets set prices, and let a wider group of individuals share the surplus within the industry. It creates a better experience for all involved.
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<< <i>I think many card shops stay in business to rip off those who still don't use the internet to know card values. And to rip off little old ladies who come in once in a while with their valuable deceased husband's card collection and the dealer schmoozes them out of it for a fraction of what it is worth - only takes one or a few of these deals to make a killing. >>
Couldnt have said it better myself. Plus they overinflate prices to kids buying packs (constantly quoting from the new Beckett HIGH prices for impossible inserts), then offer them peanuts when they go to sell after losing interest since they don't need them anymore to sell packs to. I have yet to see a card store that doesnt have good to very good condition dog eared vintage in the display case, but will open a Beckett and quote you high price for a card.........
<< <i>I think many card shops stay in business to rip off those who still don't use the internet to know card values. And to rip off little old ladies who come in once in a while with their valuable deceased husband's card collection and the dealer schmoozes them out of it for a fraction of what it is worth - only takes one or a few of these deals to make a killing. >>
Coudn't have said it worse myself. How many "little old lady" stories out there actually exist? I'd bet less than a couple hundred in history. This logic is embarrassing.
So, do you believe that the local grocery story or clothing store is also crooked? No, it's just that they handle MUCH less volume than the larger department stores, Supercenters, CostCo, etc.
Believe me, more often than not, the "ridiculously high prices" at dealers is a function of economics and not immorality.
If you don't like higher prices at a card shop, dont buy your cards there. If noone buys cards at higher prices, the shop would go out of business. I personally think the majority of them are high, but fair, and you can find some good deals, especially if they arent too into grading.
On the flipside, what if you buy a stone-cold MINT Mantle off a dealer for high beckett? You're clearly getting the better end of the deal, so aren't you, in essence, ripping off the dealer?
As far as store prices, hey, if they can get it, more power to them. I'd bet most of them are selling on ebay and have the shop for buying purposes, both for collections or so they can buy direct. But I doubt they're getting as many steals as you think.
As far as collectors caring about collectors...please. Collectors on this and similar boards? Yeah, for the most part, but collectors in general? No. Most "small time" ebay sellers would fall into the "collector" category, meaning they buy and sell stuff just like us, not necessarily for profit. From my experience, the distribution of honest sellers in that category is no higher - and in all probability lower - than it is with professional dealers. I don't see professional dealers pulling switches just so they can get $2 more for a 80/20 centered topps chrome card versus a well-centered one, but collectors do it everyday on the bay. Collectors use all kinds of misleading practices when it's *their* turn to sell.
I hate to see the card shops go. The one in my town is about to go under too, and it's because of people who can rationalize paying $100 a box but won't pay $110. I've been blunt with my local dealer, telling him I'm willing to pay him a few more bucks than I might on eBay but that is it. He understands and prices stuff accordingly, at least for me. It's nice to save money by shopping online, but it's also great to have a brick and mortar store to buy my supplies, by a Beckett, or open a box of cards in 10 minutes instead of five days.
As far as markup goes, no kidding? I mean they have rent to pay, employees to pay, etc. They are allowed to make some money, that's what they are in it for. It is a business. It would be nice to bring home a little at the end of the day. If you think nothing else is marked up in everyday life you're crazy.
I had hoped to one day open my own card store but I realize eBay isn't going to let that happen because people won't pay a few extra bucks for a box of cards. The internet has turned the card business into one big Walmart that crushes every mom and pop operation there is.
I'm as guilty as anyone, I scour eBay for the best deal I can find. I think one day we'll miss a local card shop though. Maybe I'm wrong.
Shawn.
Also those little old lady deals don't happen anymore. Anyone in the business waiting for that type of hit will soon be losing a ton of cash. 99.99% of what comes in a hobby shop is pure crap. Once in a while you get a nice collection, but then they want almost full book for it. What kind of logic is that? A lot of those guys don't really want to sell, they just want someone to tell them how much their collection is worth. We would never give a buy price unless we were certian that they would sell.
I do most of the hobby activities on the net or at shows. I think it is bad that the shops are closing. While some people had to forced out due to poor business skills, the hobby shop is usually the first place where people starting getting into the hobby. And the one thing this hobby needs is more collectors.
a business is a business, i'm sure if you knew the margins PSA makes on grading cards, you'd feel they were ripping you off too.
If you don't like higher prices at a card shop, dont buy your cards there. If noone buys cards at higher prices, the shop would go out of business. I personally think the majority of them are high, but fair, and you can find some good deals, especially if they arent too into grading.
On the flipside, what if you buy a stone-cold MINT Mantle off a dealer for high beckett? You're clearly getting the better end of the deal, so aren't you, in essence, ripping off the dealer?
I AGREE WITH WHAT THIS GUY SAID 100%. If you don't like it buy somewhere else. Let your dollars to the talking!
<< <i>Most dealers got into the business because of greed. >>
You've got to be kidding!
Most dealers that opened a card store, (like I did)
do/did so because they would rather sell cards & collectibles
and talk sports all day. As opposed to selling insurance policies
or dental equipment.
After expenses, I made very little in the shop and whatever I made
I put right back into more cards & collectibles.
If someone opens a bakery, resturant or an auto parts store
are they consumed w/ greed like card dealers? ...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
but this guy was definitely giving me a speal as if I NEED TO GIVE HIM MONEY or ill LEAVE...i mean i literally felt the guy was telling me YOU BETTER COME HERE AND NOT USE EBAY OR IM OUT!!! I was like...calm down...get a computer...AND MOVE STUFF YOU CANT SELL ON EBAY.
I dont know....i know they need to keep inventory but it just seemed as if he was complaining. I felt for him..i really did...but I still dont want to pay 100 bucks for heritage football box from this year....Ill pay fair prices for vintage but dont complain to me when all ya got is overpriced modern stuff.....he was complaining and doesnt even have top notch stuff or a decent selection to choose from!!!
Loth
This is going to sound anti-collector, but the manufacturers have to get better control over the distribution of new product. I don't have a problem with large internet sellers like Dave & Adams, but ebay sellers who live in their mom's basement or part time weekend dealers need to have their accounts pulled.
<< <i>I don't have a problem with large internet sellers like Dave & Adams, but ebay sellers who live in their mom's basement or part time weekend dealers need to have their accounts pulled. >>
Why does it matter who you buy from, as long as it arrives in reasonable condition and you get a decent price on it?
People trying to "flip" everything on ebay does not build a hobby. It makes money and for the most part most people don't really care. The sad part is that the product coming out today is most innovative in the hobby's history, but the collector base has shrunk so much that manufacturers are forced to charge $100 per box wholesale and insert crap in most of them so that they can make a profit. Look at Topps, despite the popularity of Heritage and other products, their sportscard profit is declining 20% per year. So who is making the money? The leagues and the players, both of which see the hobby as an ATM.
The hobby will keep declining, which is amazing when you consider that sports popularity are at an all-time high. I have no idea why someone would start collecting at this time. The cost of new product is so high, the cost of building even a small vintage collection is high, and the social aspect of it has been reduced to posting on a message board.
Hopefully the steps MLB took this year to control the production will help. Fewer products and longer shelf life will allow the manufacturers to put more quality in each box. The next step is to control distribution. Boxes may become a little more expensive, but they also may have more value.
<< <i>
<< <i> I have yet to see a card store that doesnt have good to very good condition dog eared vintage in the display case, but will open a Beckett and quote you high price for a card......... >>
The card shop I work at sells vintage with ANY kind of a crease/hairline at 10%, and EX at 25%. You guys should head down to Missouri.
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
So, do you believe that the local grocery story or clothing store is also crooked? No, it's just that they handle MUCH less volume than the larger department stores, Supercenters, CostCo, etc.
Believe me, more often than not, the "ridiculously high prices" at dealers is a function of economics and not immorality. >>>
A couple hundred in history? Now that's funny. And your comparison between card dealers and other stores is completely bogus. And I don't care what the "function" is with card stores, the owners are weasels - if you want to patronize them and play their rip-off games then you go right ahead. I go to card shops for supplies and for supplies only. Note that I am referring to brick & mortar card shops as rip-offs, not online card shops which are much, MUCH better to deal with.
<< <i><<< Coudn't have said it worse myself. How many "little old lady" stories out there actually exist? I'd bet less than a couple hundred in history. This logic is embarrassing.
So, do you believe that the local grocery story or clothing store is also crooked? No, it's just that they handle MUCH less volume than the larger department stores, Supercenters, CostCo, etc.
Believe me, more often than not, the "ridiculously high prices" at dealers is a function of economics and not immorality. >>>
A couple hundred in history? Now that's funny. And your comparison between card dealers and other stores is completely bogus. And I don't care what the "function" is with card stores, the owners are weasels - if you want to patronize them and play their rip-off games then you go right ahead. I go to card shops for supplies and for supplies only. Note that I am referring to brick & mortar card shops as rip-offs, not online card shops which are much, MUCH better to deal with. >>
Another totally ignorant opinion. How many card shops have you been to? Four? Five? And because you didn't like the owners you assume that all cards shop owners are weasels?
C'mon. A grown man should be above making these kinds of broad based assessments.
SD
edited to add : actually it was 47 minutes. 40 minutes I waited for him to appear. my appt was for 2:00 at 2: 30 I was taken into a room. at 2:40 he came in. 7 minutes later I was out 3 bills.
was i ripped off? i don't think so. he has an office staff, nurses, rent. mal prac inxurance etc etc etc.
sorta like a card dealer has bills too.
Incorrect. I've been in at least 100 baseball card shops in my time. I happen to enjoy talking to most of the card shop owners about baseball and baseball cards. With some, I buy a fair amount of supplies throughout the year so I am a good customer for them. Personally most of them are nice guys but I've called them a weasel to their face (in a nice way - LOL) and none have denied it - they know what they are just like you know what you are.
I think it's unfair to overgeneralize.
mike
<< <i>Heard it from the owners themselves in the 90's when you would leaf through some freshly made 9 page albums of vintage sets and they couldnt wait to tell you how much they paid for them. Nothing like bragging that you rip off people............... >>
i seriously doubt you've ever heard more than 3 or 4 people "brag" about ripping someone off..
as stone said, it's unfair to overgeneralize..
I hear ya Mike but I think if you hooked up almost every baseball card shop owner to a lie detector machine and asked them, "Are you a weasel?" They would have to answer "Yes" otherwise that needle would start zigzagging all over the place - LOL.
And where guys like Boopotts completely miss the point is that okay, if adults get ripped off, well adults can and will handle it. But these card shop owners are sometimes ripping off children and that galls me to no end. That is despicable!
<< <i><<< I think it's unfair to overgeneralize. >>>
I hear ya Mike but I think if you hooked up almost every baseball card shop owner to a lie detector machine and asked them, "Are you a weasel?" They would have to answer "Yes" otherwise that needle would start zigzagging all over the place - LOL.
And where guys like Boopotts completely miss the point is that okay, if adults get ripped off, well adults can and will handle it. But these card shop owners are sometimes ripping off children and that galls me to no end. That is despicable! >>
More craziness.
How can a shop rip off a kid? Assuming a kid comes in with 10 or 20 bucks to buy packs, what can a shop owner possibly do to him?
And again, more ridiculous generalizations. I see you side stepped my question re: how many shop owners you've met, so I think we can safely assume that the number is less than six. Also, you've neatly failed to detail just what you mean by 'rip off'. A brick and mortar shop has more overhead, so--duh-- they're obviously going to have higher prices than some Elmo selling singles on Ebay out of his basement.
If you're saying that shop owners knowingly sell off counterfeit or altered cards then I would say you're wrong, since the shop owners and dealers I know-- and I know plenty-- don't do that. If you're talking about offering old ladies 10 cents on the dollar for their husbands collection I'll tell you that most dealers don't see a deal like that more than once every five years, which renders that argument irrelevant.
Taking people on a case by case basis is not your long suit, Steve, as evidenced by both this thread and the gambling thread we participated in earlier this year. Simply because YOU lose gambling doesn't mean everyone does. Similarly, just because YOU know a shop owner who scammed someone doesn't mean all card shop dealers have the same business M.O.
If you, as a basement Elmo, sell cards on Ebay you're not in most cases looking to make a profit. Instead you're just looking to reduce the amount of crap you own, or raise enough bread to buy some other card. When you're trying to work on a profit margin which will afford you a comfortable lifestyle the dynamics surrounding buying and selling get quite a bit more complicated.
I work in a cardshop, and we offer the exact same thing (1/3 of our projected sale price) to anyone that brings in anything we can use.
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
of junk to get 3 boxes of gold. The card companies killed the hobby shops, or maybe the shop owners were too weak.
Remember come heritage time, that topps needs us, not the other way around. If they screw this up, Im gone and you should be too.
The card companies have taken advantage of collectors expectations too many times. They know what they can sell on name alone.
They cut corners too often.
Dealers didn't have the power to say no but we do!
JS
The leagues and the players still have this notion that the hobby is just as popular as it was in 1990. The card manufacturers have no choice but to pay the higher fees and the trickle down effect is the crap we get in modern boxes. The only solution to force change is to stop buying, but the people left in this hobby are the die-hards.
Greed, by everyone involved, killed the golden goose.
<< <i>I spent 7 minutes in my dr's office today. The bill was 300.00 and they wanted it before I walked out.
SD
edited to add : actually it was 47 minutes. 40 minutes I waited for him to appear. my appt was for 2:00 at 2: 30 I was taken into a room. at 2:40 he came in. 7 minutes later I was out 3 bills.
was i ripped off? i don't think so. he has an office staff, nurses, rent. mal prac inxurance etc etc etc.
sorta like a card dealer has bills too. >>
One HUGE difference. A doctor or a mechanic as previously mentioned have a skill that most do not have and I cannot obtain those services elsewhere. Whereas I can buy cards from my home online at any hour and find more inventory than any shop. There is no place for these dealers now. Sure it would be great to go and buy a pack now and then on a lark but come on.
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Loth
VintageJeff - Like I said before ebay and the net are great for current collectors. But they do not bring in new collectors like a shop does. I know that doesn't matter to most people here, but new collectors grow the hobby and in the long run prices will be stronger.
Lothar - I don't know what shop you went to, but if they price cards that high they will be out of business. No shop in my area prices modern cards at book, except for local stars that have a high demand and very hot rookies.
Everyone on this board seems to hate card shop even though the guy is trying to make a living. I don't see too many former card shop owners driving a Benz.
Yes, I collect shiny modern crap
All your Shaq are belong to me
<< <i>I stated that I had been in at least 100 card shops...that is sidestepping the question? And the rest of your post is just as ignorant and silly. What isn't silly though are poker websites which are enticing and luring people, including underage children, into losing their money gambling. If you watched the Al Roker show on TV last night, you'll know that the facts are that a number of underage children are gambling online and losing bigtime on poker websites - and you are a profiteer in this. You should be ashamed of yourself. >>
What I'm ashamed of is that I've now spent four posts arguing all this with an illiterate yahoo like yourself.
Time to press on. Go Seminoles.
Hobby stores were everywhere when I took up collecting again in 95, although I guess the hobby was actually down a little from its peak a few years earlier. It was a lot of fun going to the dozen or so card shops in my area. I still occasionally stop by the local shops (the 25% that are still in business) for old times sake. It's good to chat with some of the old-timers who've been in the business for years. I try to spend money there but sometimes it's tough. But I honestly believe it will not be as fun a hobby if the remaining card shops close their doors.
I don't really know what the answer is to the hobby's problems. Most cards produced since the early 80s (beginning of the card boom) are not worth much or are overpriced. I just think it is very difficult to manufacture a collectible.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Yea...make yourself proud by fleecing more people of their money.
I don't like seeing vulnerable, innocent people getting taken advantage of. If this doesn't bother you then that's your problem.
<< <i>Because those weekend and basement dealers do not build a support system for the hobby. Hobby stores and professionally run internet stores do. Ebay and the net are great for current collectors, but they do not bring any new hobbyist (money) into the hobby. All of us here can remember walking into a hobby shop and looking at all of the cards. Like megatron said, going to a shop used to be a special event.
People trying to "flip" everything on ebay does not build a hobby. It makes money and for the most part most people don't really care. The sad part is that the product coming out today is most innovative in the hobby's history, but the collector base has shrunk so much that manufacturers are forced to charge $100 per box wholesale and insert crap in most of them so that they can make a profit. Look at Topps, despite the popularity of Heritage and other products, their sportscard profit is declining 20% per year. So who is making the money? The leagues and the players, both of which see the hobby as an ATM.
The hobby will keep declining, which is amazing when you consider that sports popularity are at an all-time high. I have no idea why someone would start collecting at this time. The cost of new product is so high, the cost of building even a small vintage collection is high, and the social aspect of it has been reduced to posting on a message board.
Hopefully the steps MLB took this year to control the production will help. Fewer products and longer shelf life will allow the manufacturers to put more quality in each box. The next step is to control distribution. Boxes may become a little more expensive, but they also may have more value. >>
Guess this brings up a new question: what would it take to create value for both hobby shops and collectors so the shops could be more viable and more collectors would be attracted to cards? Something tells me that a two-year moratorium where the manufacturers could only produce, say, 3-5 products each in the course of a year, something that would strike a balance between giving the stores just enough new stuff to sell while also being able to clear out older stuff as well. It also seems like every shop should have an eBay presence, probably some sort of online store or informational site outside of eBay, as well as consignment (be it in-shop or on eBay). And let's face it, the card games (Magic, Yu-gi-oh, etc.) sell, Xbox 360's sell, and unless a shop is in an area where a sports-only store could certainly make it, it's not time to get snobby.
Yes, I collect shiny modern crap
All your Shaq are belong to me
<< <i>I spent 7 minutes in my dr's office today. The bill was 300.00 and they wanted it before I walked out.
SD
edited to add : actually it was 47 minutes. 40 minutes I waited for him to appear. my appt was for 2:00 at 2: 30 I was taken into a room. at 2:40 he came in. 7 minutes later I was out 3 bills.
was i ripped off? i don't think so. he has an office staff, nurses, rent. mal prac inxurance etc etc etc.
sorta like a card dealer has bills too. >>
Are you serious? Does this include a plain film, lab tests, or JUST the office fee? Was this a specialist or generalist?
Did you have a big wart whacked off or something?
One day, I saw an ad or a yard sale, and it mentioned a large card collection for sale.
So, I made sure that "I was up before the birds got up" and was the at the location before these folks even finished their breakfast! LOL!
It turned out that their son, who was away in graduate school, had a large collection of 80's and 90's baseball, basketball and football cards, that were, for the most part, star cards, nicely stored in card sleeves and then each card was in a card saver, and each card was priced with a black sharpy, marked $1.00, $2.00, $5.00, etc. Some were "marked down" with a red sharpy, crossing out the old black price, for example, $2.00, marked down to $1.00.
This kid apparently marked and packaged his cards to do card shows, I guess.
His parents were clueless as to what cards were worth and knew little about any of the sports stars of the 80s and 90s. I asked them "how much for these cards?" and they answered me. "The cards are already marked with a price on them".
I then told them, they were lucky if they even sold a "few dollars worth of cards" that way today. I further stated, that I would be interested in only a few items and the rest would be little or no value at all to me.
And I told them, there is no way I was going thru all those 10-15 large boxes of cards, just so I could find a few cards that might be of any value to me.
So I further said, the only way I would be interested in the cards, was to pay $100 for all 10-15 boxes and just go through all the boxes at some later date (...I really don't remember for sure how many boxes there were! ...you all know the card storage boxes I'm talking about, with two rows to a box!).
So, mom and dad thought about it for a minute or so, I then took out a $100 bill and paid them, and I'm sure they were just happy to get these heavy boxes out of the house! I made a ten or so trips back and forth to my car, man those were heavy!
I still have all those boxes of cards intact, never sold a single item (maybe just out of guilt!). I can't even imagine how angry that poor college kid was when he came home on "spring break or something" just to find out his entire collection gone, sold by his parents for a hundred bucks during a yard sale! I'm quite sure this kid just wanted to strangle them both! LOL!
In my opinion, each box contains easily a few hundred dollars worth of cards by now, some boxes maybe more?
I have thought about this purchase for years now, and to tell you the truth, I'm not happy with myself over it! And if I was able to meet this kid (who most likely began a family of his own by now!) in person, I give him back all his boxes, and tell him to give them to his kids, and start them out in the hobby with all those nice star cards of the late 80's and 1990's! Yeah give me my $100 back please!
The whole point of this long, boring story, is I hate what I did. I took advantage of his folks (HIS GREEDY PARENTS WHO JUST WANTED THE $100 FOR THEIR YARD SALE!) and wound-up with maybe 1-2 thousand dollars with of material for a hundred bucks.
Many a nite I thought of the years this kid pain-stakenly ripped open pack after pack, box after box, all the visits to shops, target, wal-mart, shows, trades with friends, etc. Just to have me and his parents in less than five minutes, finish-off his entire collection at a yard sale!
edit: Greedy dealers suck! Merry Xmas!
rbd
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