Question for 1962 Topps BB Wax Pack experts

Kurtman9

I don't purchase unopened material very often, but I recently won a 1962 Topps Baseball Wax Pack 5 cent graded 7.5 by Global. The label stated "4th Series 5 cards & stamps". I knew it was a gamble, but after I found that series 4 contained cards 265 - 352 which includes Frank Robinson, the low pop Landrum, Aaron, Mays, Mantle IA, etc., I took the risk, bid strong and ended up winning the pack on ebay ($432).

Got the pack in the mail today and after some soul searching, I admitted to myself that there was no way that I could resist opening this pack for very long, so why not just open it now.

The top card which showed through the wrapper was #326 Tom Parsons which is why GAI listed it as 4th series. However, none of the other 4 cards were from the 4th series.
#326 Parsons - 4th Series
#452 Averill - 6th Series
#484 Schofield - 6th Series
#499 Versailles - 6th Series
#512 Forneiles - 7th Series

Anyone familiar with unopened material from the the early 60s - was it rare for this happen with cards from multiple series to be in the same wax pack?

The suspicious side of me is wondering if someone perhaps tampered with the contents prior to it being graded by GAI. Not real happy with getting 5 commons, none of them mint (3 will probably be 8s, other 2 not even gradeable), but I knew that was possible going in.

The GA encapsulation was completely intact prior my breaking it open, so I am confident that there was no tampering after GAI graded it.
Has anyone else had a any experience that can shed any light into this? How does GAI know for sure that a pack has never been opened?

mikeschmidt

You can never be 100% sure that a pack has never been opened. GAI provides an opinion. They are often right - but mistakes do slip through.

The label on the flip could have been wrong - but I admit that I know little about the 1962 Topps pack distribution.

If someone was truly an expert at researling such packs - they could have easily substituted in five cards from the 4th series if so inclined.

WinPitcher

Mantlefan will know.

IJustLoveCards

In the 60's at some point topps issued packs that were "all series packs" the same thing is found in 1973 (whereas a label is issued as 5th series but can be mislabled unless you have the complete box where it states "the series name on the box") when GAI grades a pack they often are told by the pack owner which series they believe the pack is from, if GAI can see a card thru the pack and identify the player they will more often than not issue the label with that series on it. However, I dont feel that a series should be assigned unless GAI can see both the top and bottom card and without a doubt identify the series.

I cant be 100% sure but I am pretty sure you happened to get an all-series pack that was mis labeled.

As I said earlier, Topps issued many boxes towards the end of a year that was an all-series box that people today call 5th and 6th series packs when infact they contained cards from all 6 series in the pack, yet a high series card shows, hence the label was printed incorrectly and the pack owner opens it and finds the 600 card next to a 100 card and says "what the...."

hope this helps

Griffins

I've got a strange feeling about this, hope I"m wrong.....

Do any of the cards have wax stains? Is any wear on the corners consistant? is there a gum stain on the card touching the gum? are there stains of gum or wax on any other cards that shouldn't have them?

There was a guy who was a prominant wax seller, and claimed he was getting reseals thru. Before it all came out I bought a raw '62 pack from him that came back resealed. I opened it and it was mixed series, mostly off center cards. The middle one had a wax stain.
The seller was caught buying wrappers and cards, and was pretty much ostrasized. He's changed ebay id's and is also consigning to auction houses to distance himself from his stuff. Since my bogus pack was the same year as yours it makes me suspicious. I hope I'm wrong, but since you opened it your chances of recourse are pretty slim.

Kurtman9

<< <i>I've got a strange feeling about this, hope I"m wrong.....

Do any of the cards have wax stains? Is any wear on the corners consistant? is there a gum stain on the card touching the gum? are there stains of gum or wax on any other cards that shouldn't have them?

There was a guy who was a prominant wax seller, and claimed he was getting reseals thru. Before it all came out I bought a raw '62 pack from him that came back resealed. I opened it and it was mixed series, mostly off center cards. The middle one had a wax stain.
The seller was caught buying wrappers and cards, and was pretty much ostrasized. He's changed ebay id's and is also consigning to auction houses to distance himself from his stuff. Since my bogus pack was the same year as yours it makes me suspicious. I hope I'm wrong, but since you opened it your chances of recourse are pretty slim. >>



The top card Parsons #326 did have wax residue on the front which was against the wrapper (none of the others had wax on them). The gum was stuck to the stamps which was stuck to the back of the bottom card Averill #452. That card also had much much more corner wear than the others in the pack. I know the chances of the bottom or top card having more corner wear is greater than the other cards in between, but damn, the bottom card had 2 creased corners and the other cards have NMMT corners. The cards did not have consistent centering. Another thing I found odd was that the pack opened so easily with barely any pressure. Again, I'm a novice when it comes to unopened wax so maybe this is common, I don't know, but I thought it was strange and I thought about how easy it would be to open, swap cards and reseal.

As far as recourse goes, I have resigned myself to the fact that I'm stuck with this pack. Can't blame the seller - his item description was correct and I got the item in the description. Can't really blame GAI either (I guess). I figure I gambled and lost. The main reason I want to know is for my future buying decisions. If tampered packs are getting past GAI then I surely don't ever want to take this risk again.

Griffins

<< <i> Another thing I found odd was that the pack opened so easily with barely any pressure. >>


that was my experience on the '62 pack also- I barely lifted a corner and it popped open. Once I took the cards out and looked at them it was easy to put them back in the wrapper and close it-a dab of anything would've held it.
I highly recommend NOT eating the gum- I had to do it but it was nasty. Took beer, scotch, and half a tube of crest to get the taste out of my mouth.

studentT206

Griffins,

You really tried the f'n gum?!!! Are you nuts!!! Gotta be kidding! Did you spit or swallow? HA!

Damian

Wabittwax

If somebody was going to reseal packs, what benefit would it be to mix up the series? It would be just as easy to put all 4th or all 5th series commons in the same pack. Mixing up the series would only cause suspicion. I can't see any financial gain in that. I think other factors would leave me to believe that a pack has been resealed rather than the series being mixed up.

Kurtman9

<< <i>I highly recommend NOT eating the gum- I had to do it but it was nasty. Took beer, scotch, and half a tube of crest to get the taste out of my mouth. >>






I think we need a scientific experiment to test the effects of aging gum sitting against wax and cardboard for 43 years. I think I'll just keep the gum, maybe one day it will be worth more than the cards.

Mantlefan

I have opened about 20 of these 1962 packs [I know, I'm hopeless]. The great majority of the cards were all from the same series. The ones with mixed series, I am certain, were re-seals since I only got commons and they looked less than pristine.

rvc

when i open gai 9's and higher i feel confidant the pack is authentic.
when i used to open gai 7.5 and 7's i concluded the packs had a very good chance of not being authentic- now i have no interest in any gai packs less than 8. gai 8's are usually alright .

BugOnTheRug

<< <i>Another thing I found odd was that the pack opened so easily with barely any pressure. >>


Of all the interesting things you've found, I find it extremely unlikely that a legit factory seal would open easily, regardless of it's age. I've opened newer product that was very easy to open and came to the conclusion others here have already pointed out - tampered with.

MorrellMan

The collation of your pack is not unusual. I opened literally hundreds, probably thousands, of wax packs in 1962. The series of cards released did not coincidence with the "series" of cards as checklisted. In other words, the first series of cards released were 1 thru 110, or the first series and part of the second. The next release was the rest of the second series and part of the third. The third release was the rest of the third series and part of the fourth, etc. As the season went on and I waited for the next series to come out, I would buy a sample pack out of a box for 5 cents and open it to see if it was the new series. If it was, I spent my whole allowance; if not, I waited for the next box. Some of these later releases contained cards of an earlier release; Topps just clearing out their back stock along with the new printing. Your pack contains the cards of the fifth release plus one card from the fourth release, which often occurred. Based on the collation of the pack alone; it is probably legit. Other posters (Mantlefan, Griffins, etc.) raise the questions of tampering of which I have no experience.

Edited to add: I also remember packs that opened easier than others. I attributed it, at the time, to the location of the drug store's box of cards - if they spent a lot of time in direct sunlight, I think it affected the wax seal. Sometimes, packs did virtually pop open with the slightest pressure. Also, I don't recall "all series" packs, as someone mentioned, but I do recall the mixed packs.

julen23

Very interesting reading...

Scans by chance of your pack bust?

Julen

packCollector

The seal should not just pop right open with touch. It should not be welded shut either. when you open them , in the majority of cases , the seal should open with a consistant pulling of the wrapper from the end of the seal. The wax will usually cause a consistant seal. Based on the fact that your pack popped open and the cards were not from corresponding series , I think you got burned by a pack that slipped through.

I have not seen any "ALL" series packs pre 73 where you would have a 1st and last series card for example. Packs that are mixed series should have cards from corresponding series . , ie, 1st/2nd , 4th/5th/6th etc. the way the cards would roll of the press disctates that there should be some kind of pattern. if you have a mixed series pack from 70-73 for example , it is usually 2 adjacent series with 5 cards of each. one note is there are also many 70 5th/6th/7th series packs around shere the cards will be 3-3-4 from what I have been told , I have not opened any. all of the 60's packs I have opened have been 1 series and the cards usually match out to the sheet for sheets that I have copies of.

by the way if it makes you feel any better , 432 was a pretty good price for that pack. it could have gone a lot higher and then it would have hurt more.

gemint

I think it's hard to say for sure that just because a pack was easy to open, it probably is resealed. I've purchased factory fresh vintage wax boxes and there were sometimes a few packs whose seals opened or partially opened over the years. Granted these were early 70s wax boxes, not early 60s, but the technique for factory sealing was the same.

packCollector

one other note about the seals, they can be lose , usually the bottom packs or packs that stick together. there is no way to say for sure but when you have multiple irregualrities , it pushes me to the camp that you probably got a bum deal.

for packs available in the present time.
as for 70's , I have definately seen more lose seals right from boxes since the boxes are usually full and undistributed. 60's and before usually got opened if it was loose and removed from the box. if the box was a full box currently for sale , it is believable to see some loose seals but for packs that have been distributed , I doubt they would have been kept unopened or purchased as a pack in the 1st place .

1954

My good friend purchased three GAI packs last week and got them in on Friday. When he pulled them out of the box I could not believe what I saw. The 1954 Bowman Football GAI 7.5 had two tears in the pax on the front and the wrapper was not adhered on the back. The GAI 8.5 had an inch tear on the front and the wrapper was again not adhered on the back. I looked at him and said ," What is this crap?" I don't know if the tears occured in shipping and the gum made the tears, however the packs are clearly not the grade that GAI assigned them.

1954

packCollector

<< <i>I don't know if the tears occured in shipping and the gum made the tears, however the packs are clearly not the grade that GAI assigned them.
>>



this is a big problem with the gai holder. I had 2 packs out of 2 get torn in shipping a couple of weeks ago. both were sent boxed and carefully packaged. nothing much else I could have done. also, corner splits are pretty common on packs in the 7-7.5 grade. I bought a 1970 8.5 with a corner split and ended up opening it , fortunately I pulled a 1/1 psa 10 that just about got me my money back.

Kurtman9

Thanks for all the replies. Here are scans of the wrapper and cards. The top right corner of the pack was torn and the gum stuck when I got it.

RonBurgundy

I've never understood why people want to bust something open that has survived 40 + years untouched.

rlankhaar

<< <i>I've never understood why people want to bust something open that has survived 40 + years untouched. >>



It's the allure of getting a perfect card (like a Mantle of Mays) that has been untouched for those 40+ years. Now personally I don't feel that its worth paying the price for what you will likely get in that pack, but I definately understand the appeal of it.

Kurtman9

<< <i>

<< <i>I've never understood why people want to bust something open that has survived 40 + years untouched. >>



It's the allure of getting a perfect card (like a Mantle of Mays) that has been untouched for those 40+ years. Now personally I don't feel that its worth paying the price for what you will likely get in that pack, but I definately understand the appeal of it. >>



I normally don't buy unopened material but as I said in the initial post, the GAI label said this was series 4 and if you look at the cards in that series, there are many really awesome in-demand cards including Ford, Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, Don Landrum, Mantle In Action, Maris In Action, among many others. I figured my chances of getting at least one of these was not great, but decent. I rolled the dice and lost, which is ok, that's the game, but I would have felt much better had it been a legit pack and not a reseal job.

ICE9

Does anyone trust Global's integrity after they authenticated & slabbed all of those hokey 1970, 71 and 72 Baseball "grocery cellos"? I was really thinking about channeling my hobby dollars into 50's & 60's unopened packs. Now, I just don't know. To me, it's unacceptable that GAI lets some reseals "slip through", regardless of the numerical grade on the holder. They charge a very hefty price for their service (not to mention the lousy customer service & extended turn-around times) & they should be held responsible for packs that they certify to be "authentic - unopened". I think I'm going to wait for PSA's pack grading service.

Mike

Griffins

I don't think any grading system is perfect- it's an opinion. Stuff slips thru all grading companies, that is why you need to buy the card and not the holder.
It's especially tough to tell once a pack is open if it was resealed- you need to see the folds and the seal before hand. If you don't have it already Mark Murphy's book has some good information, along with nice images.

bxb

Interesting thread.

Yesterday I opened a 1967 GAI 7 wax pack. This was my first GAI wax pack, and I decided to crack it open. The thrill of discovering something great ran through my veins.

The thrill came to an abrupt halt.

First, the seal on the pack was completely loose (this was not evident prior to opening the holder).

Second, the gum was broken into about 50 little pieces.

Third, the five cards were from different series, were all commons, and had different types of wear. The card near the gum had no gum stain, and the card touching the wax had no wax stain. All had corner bends or wear, one had a scrape on the edge, two were OC. None would even merit a PSA 6 in my opinion.

And finally, lest there be any doubt that this was a tampered product, one card had a small pen mark on the back!

Conclusions: 1) The GAI standards for wax pack grading are at best subjective, and at worst a farce ("AUTHENTIC - UNOPENED" the holder says).
2) You pays your money, you takes your chances. I'd rather go with the lottery.
3) No more GAI for me.

stevek

Great thread - one of my favorite threads of all time here. The year 1962 was my first year collecting as a kid and is still my favorite set to collect. Those wood grain borders I still find fascinating today as well as the collecting interest of searching for nice condition cards in this set because of all the off centers, miscuts, etc., along with the variations that this set has.

That being said...a real shame that this pack turned out to be such a waste of money. I don't trust many GAI "unopened" packs for reasons I have clearly stated here in other threads. I don't want to disagree with any of my fellow card collectors here and my only experience has been from my little neighborhood in Fairfield, Connecticut and the local candy store where we used to buy our cards and comics and candy and soda. We bought and flipped baseball cards frequently all summer and I just don't remember those mixed series like that out of any wax packs. Especially at the end of the summer. Most kids would stop buying cards right around when the baseball season was coming to an end and I remember those packs were always the high series numbers. This particular candy store in downtown Fairfield did a heck of a business in baseball cards. Again...other neighborhood shops may very well of course had different types of wax packs as others have stated here.

But the bottom line of the thread, based on the stories and the condition of the cards in the scan, in my opinion that wax pack was tampered with.

Kurtman9

<< <i>...a real shame that this pack turned out to be such a waste of money. >>



... to this hombre, that's a major understatement!

An ironic thing: 6 months ago, I won an ungraded 1960 Topps wax pack from a seller who sells a bunch of stuff, not just cards. The item description said they found several of these when they moved their location and forgot about them for a while. It did sound a little strange and I guess that was why there were no bids. It was one of those late morning ebay endings and the min bid was $150. I said to myself what the hell why not and I was the only one who bid and won the pack. Well, that pack turned out legit and probably would have graded 8 or 8.5 at global. I pulled 6 mint cards (well ok, 2 were nmmt) including the Mantle/Boyer card! It was a 2nd series pack. Unfortunately 3 of those cards were OC, but I was really happy with the purchase. The same seller subsequently listed 2 more of those same 1960 packs (he must have had a complete box) and they went between $300 & $400. That experience probably helped give me the courage to gamble on the recent 62 pack referred to in this thread.

How about that? Ungraded pack turns out legit with mint cards and graded pack yields crap reseal. Well, I have learned from this experience and will not be purchasing any more vintage wax packs. Cello packs maybe, but no wax for me from here on out ("I maybe dumb but I ain't stupid").

Thanks to all for the very informative replies to this thread.

packCollector

speaking of that 60 pack, I bought won from that guy for less than 250 based on your experince . thanks

MorrellMan

<< <i> We bought...baseball cards frequently all summer and I just don't remember those mixed series like that out of any wax packs. Especially at the end of the summer. Most kids would stop buying cards right around when the baseball season was coming to an end and I remember those packs were always the high series numbers >>



This is an interesting observation; that there were no mixed series packs and only high numbers at the end of the season. I've known for some time that Topps marketed the east coast different than the west coast. We out here in SoCal had precious few high numbers. My drug store never did carry them in 1962; I do remember seeing some in Whittier one day when I visited a family friend, but for the most part, major distribution of high numbers in 1962 Los Angeles didn't happen. I wonder if, instead, we got these mixed series packs. Something to think about.

Fuzz

Kurtman,
While many moons ago, I had a very large unopened pack collection, I don't think you will get to a certain answer on your pack. But most certainly, popping older packs is almost always a money losing proposition.
However, my real comment is ......... I could give that wrapper a nice home if it becomes available.
Good Luck,
Fuzz

stevek

MorrellMan - your post about the mixed series does make sense and anything is possible. Knowing what I know about the business world today (didn't know much when I was 7 years old back in 1962 - LOL) it would make sense that Topps would offer "mixed series" or any posible configuration or deal to get rid of inventory.

We didn't have a ton of money as kids but whatever we had we often bought baseball cards. I remember the store owner always treating us kids with kindness and respect, and answering all of our "kid" questions about the cards and upcoming comic books. I didn't think about it back then but his interest tells me that he certainly was moving a lot of cards, and that he looked at the kids as good customers which helped him make a living, not as pain in the necks. Some shop owners of today could take a lesson from that and treat kids as customers, not as pain in the necks.

But the point is that this store moved their inventory well and Topps most probably shipped fresh inventory to them and the store owner had no problem ordering new cartons of cards even towards the end of the season because he knew he would still sell them. The cards of course did sell slower though at the end of the season.

I was never much into football cards, although I do still own a fair amount of them, but some of my friends were into football cards and when we walked to the store, it was almost every Saturday, my friends would sometimes mildly chastise me for buying baseball cards after the season was over instead of buying football cards which of course were now in season. But I just wanted to get as many new, different baseball cards as possible which is why I clearly remember the cards at the end of the season were the last series. Frankly, if I had bought a pack with mixed series, I wouldn't have bought any more that year so it certainly in my view was better business for Topps to just discard that inventory and keep offering the new cards just like they did at my neighborhood shop. But it wouldn't surprise me if Topps offered dealers possibly a lower price per carton on the mixed series just to blow them out...anything is possible.

Steve

WinPitcher