Superior auction-what sold and what did not

1954

I just checked to see if I had won anything from last nights auction and noticed that the first 200 items there were at least 90 items either pulled or went without a bid. I have not seen very many items that went without a bid in any auction, however I have seen items pulled for misrepresentation or for what ever reason. I find it very odd that there are items like 1955 Topps cards that were pulled. Something is not right. Do you think that there was a reserve on this items and they did not meet the reserve?

Shane

IJustLoveCards

not sure about the 55's, but with 4 auctions all ending around the same time it has to hurt overall sales, Mastro and MileHigh on Dec 7th, lelands, a few days later, and of coursesuperiors just ended, way too much high end stuff for this hobby to swallow all at once. Yes I do believe there was a reserve on certian items.

mikeschmidt

Shane:

My understanding is that the items did not meet the pre-determined reserves, despite pretty healthy pricing at the time of the auction close. I also have heard that Superior was an owner of the cards - as opposed to serving as an auction intermediary.

Griffins

I can't believe how many lots didn't sell- that has got to scare off potential consignors. Any why bother bidding on a lot of their stuff when they don't intend to sell it?

duner

the last superior auction was horrible too, a bunch of consignors took a bath on the realized prices. i can't imagine why anybody would consign to superior.

wildcat05

nice set

1954

Wildcat.
What a great feeling not only to win, but to walk away feeling like one slipped through the cracks. I can tell you back five years ago when all of the auctions were going, very rarely did you see lots that went unsold. I am sure that items were purchased back by the consignor to avoid taking a bath on an item, but as far as I know reserves were out of the question. It looks very poor on the auction house to have a quarter of your consignments not meet reserve or not get a bid. There are many smart and wealthy collectors in this business. If all the OJ's were below market value then more bids would have come through. I believe that Superior had their reserves set too high and that market value was hit for those items.
Shane

Griffins

<< <i>very rarely did you see lots that went unsold. >>


How do you know? There is one auction house in particular that constantly has the exact cards repeated in multiple auctions.And if the consignors are buying them back isn't that shill bidding?

1954

Sure- shill bidding occurs more than any of us will really know. I think that is something that no one can prove. Even if a collector submits items to the auciton house, his buddy can bid it up to protect it. How can you or an auction house prove that?
SL

wildcat05

nice set

detroitfan2

OK, I'm confused (and probably ignorant too).

What does it mean that an item got "pulled"?

Are you guys saying that in addition to the minimum bid, there are unknown "reserves"? That the high bidder doesn't always win if this reserve isn't met? Is that how all auction houses work? If so, how did the Howe card get through?

Griffins

<< <i>Are you guys saying that in addition to the minimum bid, there are unknown "reserves"? That the high bidder doesn't always win if this reserve isn't met? Is that how all auction houses work? If so, how did the Howe card get through? >>



In order:

Yes
Yes
Some of them, read the rules. Mastro doesn't and Lifson doesn't, I"m sure many others don't have them either.
Probably was consigned and not house owned, so they didn't care what it went for.

SOM

This thread is great.

I would love to be directed to an honest, straightforward article (or thread) that gives the back room secrets of these card auctions. I have always been tempted to consign them a bunch of my vintage stuff, but I feel like a boy among men re: those guys.

Or the main course for the sharks.

Mantlefan

Well, there were an awful lot of OJ cards listed and all the HOFers sold. Maybe there were just too many cards from the same set and not enough OJ collectors to buy them all.

Fletch1750

I would like to take this opportunity to compliment SSA on their fantastic auction descriptions. Their crack staff did it again.

nhcardhunter

I agree with 1954. With regard to the Auction houses, I have no doubt that shill bidding goes on there on a regular basis. You can't see the bidders list, i.e. bidder ids, so how can anyone bid with confindence. Hell, I see it all the time on ebay, the latest example was Milehighcard. Mintxpress used to have some guy whiteportlj who would come in and bid on all of the high-end items at the very end, trying to drive the price up. The list goes on and on as I'm sure many of you know. Switching gears though, there's a ton of newly graded vintage baseball and the like that continuously enters the market. I've been keeping an on the pop reports and the amount of new high grade items 78 and below is absolutely staggering. That's good news for those looking for a deal and bad news, in many cases, for the seller.

Over and out!

Jim

Boopotts

<< <i>I agree with 1954. With regard to the Auction houses, I have no doubt that shill bidding goes on there on a regular basis. You can't see the bidders list, i.e. bidder ids, so how can anyone bid with confindence. Hell, I see it all the time on ebay, the latest example was Milehighcard. Mintxpress used to have some guy whiteportlj who would come in and bid on all of the high-end items at the very end, trying to drive the price up. The list goes on and on as I'm sure many of you know. Switching gears though, there's a ton of newly graded vintage baseball and the like that continuously enters the market. I've been keeping an on the pop reports and the amount of new high grade items 78 and below is absolutely staggering. That's good news for those looking for a deal and bad news, in many cases, for the seller.

Over and out!

Jim >>



And bad news for the people already holding onto vintage slabs.

SDavid

I always just assume that every auction is shilled, regardless of where it's held. I remember reading an article where an anonymous antique dealer admitted he had tons of buddies (all dealers) throughout the country whom he could email for help if an auction wasn't going well. He said this was pretty common. I doubt card dealers are any more honest. Unless the seller is stupid enough to do the shilling himself or use the same person repeatedly, it's tough to prove.

nhcardhunter

Well, I don't think that's entirely true, but I think you have a point. Most of the buyers on the bay know a good portion of the competition in their space, not to mention that word gets around quick with shill bidding. Plus, what good is shill bidding when that bidder wins the auction? The seller gets stuck with the card, plus the final fees, and then relists it again a month or two down the road when he thinks everyone has forgotten about it? Hey, it's better to be on the level then to lower yourself to that kind of fodder.

Best,

Jim

Hubcap

Jim:

Years ago when I restored and sold vintage Chevrolets, it was not uncommon for a vintage car owner to consign his car to Kruse or Jackson-Barret, etc. and bid on (shill) and sometimes even win his own car. There were no rules against bidding on your own vehicle. Why would you do that? First, even if you don't win, you might get a higher price at the final hammer. Second, even if you "win" your own car at an inflated price, less the fees on both ends, you could consign at the next auction in a different geographic area with the same company or competitior and try for an even higher price. You know that auction companies like to toot their own horn by advertising record prices. So people tend to gauge worth based on closed auction prices and voila!!! And most people I find tend to bid with their hearts and not minds.

I would also like to point out that is not uncommon for vintage card and set consignors (usually dealers) to be charged no consignment fees. I was at the Fort last year or so when a Mastro staffer was taking on consignment a group of PSA high end singles from a dealer friend at no commission. Is that why some auction houses have gone from 15% buyer premium to 19.5 and even higher? So why not shill up your own card and even if you own it at the end of the auction, it sets the bar in their showcase at the next show or on Ebay. "Hey, did you see what this card brought at the last so and so's auction?"

I agree with the point made that for certain PSA singles on Ebay we tend to know our competitors. But I will never bid on a major auction house any more just for the fact that I believe shilling is very common and there is no way to know who did it and whom I am bidding against.

AZ

1954

The items that I have won in the past three years with Mastro, Drent and Lelands have all been great experiences. I was very happy with the purchases and did not feel as if I was run up by a shill or another bidder. The product was exactly as advertised and in some cases better. However, I have not felt this way about other companies which is the reason for me not bidding with them any longer.
SL

SDavid

Most of the buyers on the bay know a good portion of the competition in their space, not to mention that word gets around quick with shill bidding.

For certain cards, maybe, but vintage HOF cards (Mantle, Clemente, Koufax, etc) and modern rookies receive bids from a wide variety of people. I've reported a few sellers and they were suspended, but only briefly, and I'm pretty sure they had been doing that for years so they came out well ahead even if you factor in ebay's final value fees.

Aaronman

It's too hard to prove the shill bidding and not worth the time to try. My strategy is to bid once and look at the results after the auction ends. I bid online with what I am willing to pay for the card (including the hammer) and never participate in the call backs. I have been outbid more times than I can count but I have also won items from both Superior and Mastro below the max bid I put in.

Doug

nhcardhunter

This is a great thread! SD, Shane, Doug, No doubt, shill bidding is hard to prove, I just keep an eye out for trends by bidders on those selling, and when I see shill bidding I report it. As far as Mantle, Koufax, Mays cards etc. I guess it's like anything else, place your best bid and wait till the last second (that's what I do most of the time). At least that cuts down on some of the shill bidding, i.e. those guys who bump just over the current bidder and wait for someone to take out the bid before bidding again.



Best,

Jim

1954

Auctions where no one can see who the bidders are are often a way to not only push the price of poker up, but protect their investment. I know personally of collectors buying or running me or other collectors up because the value of their investment would suffer if it sold for half of what they paid for it. You don't see this on 1952 Topps, however you might see it on rare items like 1968 Topps 3-d or 1954 Wilson Weiners. The product is very limited and perhaps for whatever reason the bidding is not going very well for a certain item. In some situations, the guy running it up got the screws to him when he bought the card. Card collecting is very similiar to the circle of life. The big guys need the little guys and visa versa. Sometimes the small guy turns into the big dog and that is what the dealers/auction houses need to remember.

1954