1829 curled base dime...not!

OKbustchaser

Just a word to the wise (as there have been at least three bids on this). If you are bidding on this Teletrade auction this is NOT a curled base 2.

incorrect attribution

Note: this is not a slam on IGC...I have never seen one properly attributed by any grading company.

Cladiator

Good call.

MrHalfDime

Just the grade AU-58 should have raised a red flag on the attribution. There are estimated to be about 20 examples, total, for the 1829 JR-10 Curled Base 2 dime, and of those, only 8 were reported in the last JRCS census, with an average grade of VG-9; the finest being F-15. To my knowledge, there are no known examples even approaching the lofty grade of AU-58, even with a hefty bit of grade-flation.

lathmach

Good catch. Someone's gonna get burned.

Ray

Bunker

Way to go, more people should read these forums to get an education and prevent getting burned. The knowledege on this board is amazing.

MikeInFL

That 2 sure looks curly to me.

Guess I gotta break out the books.

Hope the high bidder reads this forum...MIke

ldhair

If it was a curled base......what would it be worth? 30-40k?

ziggy29

<< <i>That 2 sure looks curly to me.

Guess I gotta break out the books.

Hope the high bidder reads this forum...MIke >>

The Red Book has a good close-up picture of a curl base 2's date. This 2 looks nothing like it. And I assume this is rare enough that there was probably only one obverse die for it?

OKbustchaser

<< <i>If it was a curled base......what would it be worth? 30-40k? >>



In that condition???at least...possibly twice that.

ziggy29

<< <i>If it was a curled base......what would it be worth? 30-40k? >>

Whatever two competing deep-pockets Bust Dime variety specialists wanted it to be.

sleeper

Does anyone know how teletrade handles returns on incorrectly attributed coins? Does the person returning the coin still have to pay the 5 or 6% return fee? That would currently be $250 to $300 at its current bid.

Andrew

OKbustchaser

<< <i>Does anyone know how teletrade handles returns on incorrectly attributed coins? Does the person returning the coin still have to pay the 5 or 6% return fee? That would currently be $250 to $300 at its current bid.

Andrew >>



"tough nuggies...take it up with the slabber"

Conder101

I don't have references available to check other diagnostic features, but the 2 on the coin does not appear to have a square base. Are you suggesting that the date on this coin has been altered?

LastExitInNY

If its not a curled base 2, how did the knuckleheads grade it as that??

OKbustchaser

<< <i>I don't have references available to check other diagnostic features, but the 2 on the coin does not appear to have a square base. Are you suggesting that the date on this coin has been altered? >>



No, this is a known die marriage--JR-6 rather than the JR-10 (actual curl base). The die break through the first A on the reverse is diagnostic. It is not rare to find 29's mis-attributed as curl base 2's as the difference is not dramatic to most people. I have seen them from ANACS also and have heard of one from NGC. The Russ Logan collection also included one--the only coin he owned which stayed in its slab after he bought it.

An actual curl base 2 from Logan collection
Another mistaken attribution--also from Russ Logan collection

sleeper

The saddest part about this whole affair is that someone may buy the coin and pay huge money for it and never know that its miss attributed, or someone will buy it thinking that ICG will fess up and pony up the extra $ that was paid for the coin when all that will happen is the same thing that happens when this happens at PCGS NGC or ANACA, " we apologize for this mechanical error and will reslab the coin approiately". All major grading services use the mechanical error excuse any time there is a miss attribution on a coin. In the dealer agreement there is a phrase that requires all dealers to make sure the coins they send in are labeled correctly and the grading services blame the dealers for not sending the coins back in to have the proper label put on the coin. On the other hand while blaming the dealer that submitted the coin they dont tell you who it was or give you any information to help you get in touch with the dealer that submitted/sold the "mechanical error" coin in the first place.

As seen recently by my company, Jade Rare Coin, auction companies are just willing to sell coins that they get consigned without any reguard to the actual contents of the holder. Teletrade should pull this coin from the auction and refuse to sell it in its current slab format. Recently I bought a 1800 half dime in an NCS holder that Heritage sold as an 1800 dime due to the fact that it was in an NCS 10c holder.

It truely makes a numismatist wonder just what the auction companies really know about the coins they are selling. Do they have non coin people just doing data entry on coins without any true numismatist looking at the coins to see that they are attributed correctly and even the correct denomination. Also what are the " finalizers" at the grading services doing that they could miss items like this.

Sorry started to babble there at the end.

Andrew

MrHalfDime

Andrew:

Don't apologize for babbling. You were simply stating what most of us were thinking. As die marriage and "variety" collecting becomes more popular, and as more and more coins become entombed in slabs, this will become and even greater problem. Your fears and frustrations are well founded. Pretty soon, as the old guard dies off and old time collections are dispersed at auction, we could have entire 'variety' collections all in slabs, with many of them misattributed. This is not an isloated case; there have been ,many such coins in recent auction sales, by all of the TPGs. Your rhetorical question is a good one - Who will assume the ultimate financial responsibility for such outright deceptive practices? Unfortunately, it may well be the unwary collector.

RalphP13

FYI:

JR-10 (Curled Base 2):


Teletrade Coin:


I like to see pics (even if they are not mine)


Ralph

OKbustchaser

I agree with you, Andrew. It has been my experience that at least 1 out of every 10 attributed bust halves is wrong--admittedly, most would not result in this kind of loss. However, I do not think that 90% should be considered a "passing grade" for professionals who are supposedly providing a premium service.

As for who will bear the ultimate loss--it will be the unknowing collector--just as it has always been.

Jim

P.S. the Teletrade coin sold for 6200.00 plus juice...OUCH!!!

curly

This is a very good example why we should learn as much as we can about numismatics before jumping in. And I'm not dissing that bidder either, perhaps he knows something we don't. I do believe, however: that there is a ton of knowledge on this board and I intend to mine it.

ziggy29

<< <i>P.S. the Teletrade coin sold for 6200.00 plus juice...OUCH!!! >>

Which tells you something right there. That would be a major rip if this were really the curl base 2 variety.

That this *sold* and met the reserve tells me that someone knew this wasn't really a curl base 2, because I doubt someone who believed the attribution on the slab would let it go for that price.

Cladiator

While I am one of the very few proponents of slabbing in the bust world I will say that the TPG's attempts at attribution have been nothing but horrific for the most part. Never take the word of a TPG for a bust attribution, always check yourself and if you're not sure ask someone for help. People end up losing money on bad buys because of this but the flipside is there are treasures out there to be found as well. Unattributed or even missattributred rarities in plastic.

Conder101

<< <i>While I am one of the very few proponents of slabbing in the bust world I will say that the TPG's attempts at attribution have been nothing but horrific for the most part. >>


And to think PCGS is now expanding into attributing VAM's a much tougher series to tell the varieties apart since the dies were made by hubbing. We joke that they grade using a dartboard, for VAM's I guess they'll use a powerball lottery number machine.

koynekwest

Don't these companies have in house variety "experts" that are supposed to be able to properly attribute these things? The difference between the curl base and square base 2 is pretty obvious to me.