Buying Cleaned Coins...Why or Why Not?

Abaco24

If a coin is NOT certified but you just like the coin for your collection, what are the positives or negatives to buying a cleaned coin?

Bochiman

+ You can get it cheaper that an uncleaned coin most likely (you should be able to)
- When you go to resell it, you may not find it easy and you may not get as much as you put into it...even a key

questor54

It depends on the coin and why you are buying it.

For example, if you collect ancient coins, ALL of your coins have been cleaned. This does not effect their retail value because evry dealer and collector expects and understands that. So does NGC and ICG who do not note cleaning on their slabs for ancients or early coins. All sea salvaged coins have been cleaned, and these bring premiums because of their historical association.

As you probably know, standards for coin handling and preservation have changed over the years - and may well change again. Almost no one today would crack out a mint state classic coin to lacquer it, but lacquer was commonly used a century ago to preserve a coin. A few years ago toned coins were out of fashion, and many were dipped. Today, toned coins are back in fashion with many people and often command a premium. Now we have NCS - what level of conservation (cleaning) is OK?

If you are buying to collect, collect what you like and let the realities of the changing marketplace be the problem of your heirs. If you are buying for investment or resale, keep your eye on the current state of numismatic fashion. Today, cleaned coins (from the last couple of hundred years) are simply harder to sell in general. On the plus side, they also cost less.

majorbigtime

It's a matter of degree--lightly or harshly cleaned?

Many cleaned coins are holdered by the top TPs.

Abaco24

Would you say this applies to early silver dollars?

I looked up on the archives here where NGC and PCGS will slab a cleaned coin?

I agree they are much cheaper and your theory of "aging/toning" for heirs to try a slabbing in 20 years seems appropriate?

Abaco24

The one I'm looking at is "lightly cleaned"

Rampage

Do you have a link to the website where it is at? Or is it not located on a website?

DennisH

Personally, I look at cleaned and damaged coins the same way I do cars with body damage.

Lower price or not, I'd rather have a problem-free example that I can be proud to show people.

DaveG

I think the most important thing is to know what you're buying and what is the proper price to pay.

Obviously, you wouldn't want to pay full price for an MS coin that has been cleaned or an AU coin that has beel cleaned up to pass as an MS coin. However, so many of the mid- to early-19th and 18th century US coins have been "cleaned" that it's really a matter of degree (as PCGS and NGC recognize).

For example, I've seen highly respected advertisers in the Gobrecht Journal who offer rarer raw Liberty Seated coins with the notation "old light cleaning". For something like a Bust dollar or a 179X half, I think it's a sliding scale, not an either/or question. You just need to know the proper price to pay (Good Luck - I don't know what that is either!)

Also, as far as re-sale goes, you either have to buy a coin rare enough that it's always in demand or wait for an up-market to sell it. You won't want to sell it in a down market, because then everyone hates "problem" coins.

Abaco24

Some pictures for comments.

questor54

Nice dollar - certainly worthy of consideration regardless of cleaning status. Would this be your first Bust Dollar?

questor54

BTW - you could try to buy it contingent on getting it slabbed by ANACS - then at least you would have authentication and a nice holder.

RedTiger

<< <i>Would you say this applies to early silver dollars?

I looked up on the archives here where NGC and PCGS will slab a cleaned coin?

I agree they are much cheaper and your theory of "aging/toning" for heirs to try a slabbing in 20 years seems appropriate? >>



You will not find it on their websites. The term often used is "market acceptable." Some people like to separate the actions of "dipping" and "cleaning." There is also whizzing and everyone agrees whizzing is bad (buffing with a Dremel tool or similar). There are a ton of dipped coins in TPG holders. Most veteran collectors will be able to point many of them out to you. For any U. S. silver coin minted before 1850 that is white, the odds of it being dipped are very high. There is also a high number of Morgans and Barbers that have been dipped, many of them reside in TPG holders. If the coin is overdipped the companies will usually give it the body bag. If it appears lightly dipped, they might downgrade it and market grade it.

Again, none of this will be admitted to by any TPG employee.

Abaco24

Yes a first for me

SDCollector

My guess is that almost half of my 19th century type set coins have been gently cleaned at least once in thier history. And it doesn't bother me a bit.

I pay appropriately, knowing full well that I'm buying so-called "collector" grade coins at relatively nominal prices. I think collectors, especially new collectors, go into a panic when an experienced collector tells them that the nice $40 classic type set coin that they just purchased is cleaned.

So my advice, if your buying collector grade coins that are well within your budget and are not a key-date and/or high condition grade rarity, then don't worry about it. If it's a nice example of a classic type coin with a gentle cleaning, then enjoy the coin. You'll enjoy this hobby much more.

relayer

I'd say probably half of raw classics have been cleaned at some point and probably 20% of slabbed ones as well.

RedTiger

<< <i>Yes a first for me >>



It's going to be your coin, it is your money. Good for you for asking before buying though. So many ask after they have bought and often times paid too much for what they have or are upset that they weren't given full disclosure.

Almost certainly the coin has been dipped, perhaps several times, perhaps worse. Hard to tell how bad it is from a photo, unless it is a train wreck. Still an eye-appealing coin, but go in with your eyes open. Many collectors, especially veterans prefer a coin with original surfaces, or one that was cleaned at least 20 years ago and has retoned nicely and naturally. That said, it is still your money and your decision to buy or not. Many newer collectors prefer a dipped look, a white silver coin can look nice after a dip.

Personally, I have several cleaned coins in my collection. Most of them were purchased with that pointed out by the sellers.

Abaco24

I won't lose my shirt for sure and this has been valuable information.

For any heavy dealers out there, what percentage off from a slabbed certified coin to a non slabbed ? 20/30/40 or more?

Bear

I put all of my type coins in the washing machine just to get

the germs off.

Cant be too careful you know.

FoundingFather

Questor54, nice post.

Abaco24

I don't understand the last two posts but it is afterall Happy Hour!

carl

I agree you can usually buy a cleaned coin cheaper than an uncleaned coin. Myself, I think to many people put to much on this don't clean thing. May have started with the Antique Roadshow where they are always harping on don't clean old stuff, don't refinish old stuff, don't, don't, don't. I don't mind a cleaned coin as long as it wasn't cleaned to make it look like an Uncir. When I see a coin that has lots of wear and is as shinny as a new coin, that dose bother me because I know the dealer is trying to screw someone by pretending it's something it's not. But an uncir coin that has been cleaned a little to remove some dirt just don't bother me at all.

Abaco24

Let's hope my bidding prevails! Thanks to all for the comments and opinions.

mozin

Unless the cleaning is acceptable to PCGS or NGC, I would definitely pass on the coin. The only positive is that you don't have to pay as much for a cleaned coin as an original one. Problem is, many people simply do not like looking at coins that are obviously cleaned. Luster is very important.

Abaco24

As is the luster for 2-3K

michael

i would pass on this 1799 dollar and i would look for a small eagle dollar that is lower grade a nice f or vf that is less cleaned and more original looking they are out there

too much money to out in a higher grade xf coin that has seen dramatic price increases in the last few years and are generally available anytime you want to buy then and also a huge investment to get a coin as cleaned and slightly below average eye appeal for me

ugly to me in fact

i woujld look for a much scarcer small eagle dollar in a fine or vf grade a high end fine that is much more original even if lightly soap and watered long ago that has retoned nicely as this coin would be a better buy and has not gone up as much in price as xf large eagle dollarsalso lots more common the large eagle dollar and the small eagle dollar is many more times scarcer

so

get a small eagle dollar in choice fine to vf and with much better eye appeal and not so harshly cleaned as the 1799

get one certified pcgs/ngc

then you will in my opinion do much better

BAJJERFAN

Hard to justify cleaned or other problem plagued coins if problem-free specimens are available.

michael

you alreasdy have reservations about it

it will only grow on you over time and get worse not better then when you want to sell it you will have many not interested or want it at a discount

not a good coin in my opinion to put a ton of your money into looking like as it does and again has gone way up in price the last few years in xf to multiples to what it was in 1999 and also these 1799 large eagle dollars are a dime a dozen so to speak

get the nice high end fine to vf small eagle dollar and also with better sufacesand not as harshly cleaned

that has since retoned and has a good look to it now yes totally eye appealling original would be great but this would be a rare and expensive find

also ngc/pcgs

keep me informed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DMWJR

Depends on what you want it for. I have a 1799 bust dollar on my desk that is harshly cleaned (silver polish). I paid $200 for it several years ago. People come into my office and see it and light right up. They ask questions about it and get to hold it and play with it. I get to tell them interesting things about numismatics. Hopefully I will light a few fires along the way. Well worth $200 to me.

fc

my simple advice is if you can affford it avoid cleaned coins.

but if you are a poor sap who wants a coin before 1829, i can see
buying a cleaned coin that is market acceptable and not unnatural looking.

Abaco24

It's a BB-154 and B-18 R-5 EF 45

Now tell me what I should pay

Abaco24

Don't think I'm a poor sap Please do UR research and give me a valid bid?

fc

abaco24

i have no clue. that is a series i admire from afar.
start another thread for comments on the coin and its value.

this one was about cleaning and why/why not to buy.

;-)

Abaco24

Please to all give me a ball park and we'll see how i come out!

I can't post a bigger picture. But I'll try

Abaco24

DMWJR That is the best Blond I've ever seen as a lustful coin

Abaco24

It's a BB-154 and B-18 R-5 EF 45

Now play along

Abaco24

DMWJR I would not be buying a play thing for my office here

Conder101

<< <i>Personally, I look at cleaned and damaged coins the same way I do cars with body damage.

Lower price or not, I'd rather have a problem-free example that I can be proud to show people. >>


And all I care about is dependable transportation or somehing I can do work with. For that "scratch n dent" will do just fine.

cladking

If you like a coin it is worthy of being purchased.

You may want to avoid commoner and later cleaned uncs since these will tend
to be easily marketed (as uncs) by large retailers so they are fully priced. Older and scar-
cer uncs are also marketable but have a more defined value so should be pretty
safe.

Cleaned circulated coins generally are heavily discounted so can be real bargains.

cho10

I had a beautiful proof like 1895-S Morgan a few years back that was sold to me RAW as MS-61 by a major dealer.
PCGS and NGC body bagged it as "Cleaned" which I think was due to a hairline/die polishing conflict that has been mentioned in other threads.
Anyway, when I told the dealer (a well respected and well known gentleman) about what happened he asked to see the coin and offered to buy it back at full price plus a premium. He explained the issue of die polishing as opposed to hairlines to me and pointed out to me that regardless of what TPG's had to say or not the coin was truly beautiful (which it was).
He also said that standards change in time and that the coin was worthwile holding on to but that he would buy it back without hesitation.
I sent it to ANACS and it came back Uncirculated details-Net grade Uncirculated.
I decided to keep the coin. I subsquently traded it for a 1928 Hawaiian commemorative also in an ANACS holder in MS61 plus 2 minor PCGS Morgan CC's in MS63 (this happened before the current CC boom).
Both the current owner and I were and are happy with the outcome and my trust in that dealer was confirmed.

tsacch

I bought bust quarter in a plastic pig suit (aka accupig) several years ago.............great strike, wonderful detail, they called it an MS60........it had some pvc and what most people said was AT to hide what was an AU55/58 detailed coin. It was cheap cheap cheap. So I did the acetone thing to it get the pvc off and it did, the AT came off too.....no hairlines, no harsh cleaning, just very slight rub........I been offered twice what i paid for it......I am still waiting for it to retone and calm down....

Maybe it should go to anacs.?

Jdurg

I have no problem buying cleaned coins as long as they are advertised as being cleaned. Many times, it's all I can afford. I own one actual gold coin, and that is an 1880 Half-Eagle that the seller said had been cleaned in the past. The coin looked okay to me and was in a price range I could afford, so I purchased it. I also bought an 1880-CC Morgan Dollar that had obviously been polished in the past, but the cost of the coin was WELL below what the typical cost of an 1880-CC Morgan was so I was actually able to afford it. I was very happy to add it to my pre-centennial collection. (Collection of coins minted 100 years prior to my birth). In many cases, when you know you that you just can't afford an uncleaned version of a coin you want, there's no problem buying the cleaned coin as long as you are told that it has been cleaned and you are happy with the coin itself.

I guess I'm lucky in that I don't look at my coins as an investment, but more as a collection. If the value goes down over time, I don't care. I buy coins because I like them, not because I want to fund my retirement with them.