This is a very interesting post that I had not seen before. I will question one of the original statements.
<<2) The commodity prices became inflationary which caused silver prices to run up in sympathy in 1917 to as high as $1.336 in 1919. At such point, it cost the US Mint more than face value to mint the silver coinage.>>
There was no silver dollar coinage in 1917. I believe subsidiary silver coinage works out to $1.3838 per ounce. Wouldn't that still be a profit for the mint?
Now I do not understand the immediate post WWI gold situation. When and how did a citizen get the right to obtain gold from the government again. Gold certificates did not resume until 1922 and till about that point the Fed and local banks were pulling gold and gold certificates from circulation. Actually the Fed was hoarding all paper money other than Fed notes. If anybody has any good information on this, please post.
It still breaks down into commercial demand and the resource strain on facilities caused by production of silver dollars. The mints received little increase in funding during the pre-war/wartime period, and staffing levels were low. Pay was also low compared to industry. Dollar production was more resource intensive than small coin - bronze and CuNi blanks were often purchased from vendors - refining, rolling, blanking, etc., etc. of silver and inspection of the larger-size final product was also more rigorous than for minor coins and dimes/quarters.
Excellent thread. After reading RWB's earlier post that referenced his Renaissance of American Coinage, 1916-1921, I pulled that volume from my book shelf and had trouble putting it down. There is a wealth of information in that book that directly pertains to the current discussion. And, although there are many factors to consider regarding the reasons for the lower production of subsidiary silver coinage than silver dollars in the early 1920s, I was particularly taken by the following quote on page 186:
At times the mint earned a profit of 40-cents or more per coin on striking standard silver dollars. Naturally, similar calculations applied to subsidiary silver, however the profits were larger since a dollar in dimes, quarters or halves contained less silver than a single dollar coin.
In my opinion, the reason for the relatively lower mintages of 1921-dated subsidiary coinage is multi-fold and complex. Perhaps factors such as the 1918-19 flu pandemic had some downward pressure on the production of coins and maybe the post-war economy had a similar influence. However, drawing such conclusions is too speculative in nature, whereas reading contemporary Mint documentation from that era and understanding the complexities of the various laws at play provide a more tangible explanation.
Thanks for the great post and discussion. Much to be learned. Now I know for sure you’re a real “Silver Bug”. I do think because tax season has ended Orville has too much time on his hands though.
The flu epidemic was a major force in 1918. Some businesses shut down because their workers died or were in hiding from the flu.
Children and healthy young adults would get sick in the morning and be dead by evening. Most diseases ravage elderly populations because they are least capable of dealing with the symptoms but a similar and less deadly flu in the 1880's gave them a partial immunity and even those who became ill were more likely to survive. This flu affected younger people and tended to kill.
The 1918-1919 Influenza definitely played a role in contributing to the 1921 recession (was really a depression!) which reduced demand for silver (and other coins) in 1921 and 1922.
How big a role? I do not know. I never stated how big a role it played. But I firmly believe it did play a role in the depression of 1921.
Numisma stated:
<< <i>In my opinion, the reason for the relatively lower mintages of 1921-dated subsidiary coinage is multi-fold and complex. Perhaps factors such as the 1918-19 flu pandemic had some downward pressure on the production of coins and maybe the post-war economy had a similar influence. However, drawing such conclusions is too speculative in nature, whereas reading contemporary Mint documentation from that era and understanding the complexities of the various laws at play provide a more tangible explanation. >>
I am merely pointing out that it probably played a bigger role in the 1921 silver coin rarities than most people realize. To state that (1) overproduction in earlier years resulting in surplus supplies, and (2) the passage of the Pitman Act of 1918 as the primary cause of the drop in silver coin production is overly simplistic and not necessarily true as evidenced by the production mintages of 1922.
Furthermore, just remember that the estimated gross national product plunged 24% from $91.5 billion in 1920 to $69.6 billion in 1921. The number of unemployed people jumped from 2.1 million in 1920 to 4.9 million in 1921!!!
I also suspect that the sea change in reduction of of mintages of half dollars (in 1921) and gold coins (which began 10 years earlier) may have led to a more obvious and permanent futuristic reduction in the demand for such coins as the American public became used to working in commerce without the half dollar and gold coins. Somehow I get the impression that only the Vegas and other casinos were large users of the half dollar and dollar coins until recent years.
Memo to all, while RWB and I are debating in public, we are pming each other in private to arrange a pleasant get-together at one of the major coin shows. He is a very knowledgeable and great numismatist!
Great post. I was going to post the collodial silver also. I took it about 10 years in liquid form briefly(one small 2 oz bottle) for somekind of ailment I had. Though I don't think it had any effect, maybe because i didn't take it long enough. At least I didn't turn blue which is one of the possible side effects.
This had the very interesting discussion of the different causes affecting the low mintages of 1921 and 1922 USA coins.
Interesting addendum is that Canada was not subject to the Pittman Act as they were/are a foreign country and yet their 1921 coinage are world famous for their extreme rarity.
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was.
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was. >>
I always wondered if it could be black pox or sheet pox?
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was. >>
I always wondered if it could be black pox or sheet pox? >>
I thought the Black Death was bubonic plague.
I thought this was a thoughtful and well researched post about macro-economic reasons behind production of coinage.
Are there similar mintages figures available from major European mints and do they buttress Oreville's argument? The situation in Europe would include not only Spanish Flu. Consider economic devastion due to the draining expenditures on war materiel and the loss of a significant proportion of men of prime age (call it labor infrastructure) who might have been productively useful in industrial economies. The impact of both of these factors and the Flu should be expected to have made their situation much worse than ours.
I realize the conflation of these confounding factors precludes any valid comparisons. I'm nevertheless curious about European mint production figures. This is not an argument for these two factors being the only ones operating.
The unemployment statistics for this country are also illuminating. How many doughboys were mustered out? What percentage of the work force might they have been. Was industrial production down due to a lack of international customers?
It's too easy to state that any one or two factors had all the impact. And that's not what Mr. O is saying. He's saying "Consider this" and giving us some reasons to consider it. RWB is saying "Consider this" too.
Like the 30 year old beer commercial with Steinbrenner and Billy Martin which had Billy saying "I feel very strongly both ways"
And for both reasons, as with Charlie the Tuna (good flavor/good taste).
But how could both of them be right?
As our very own King of Siam said "It's a puzzlement"
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was. >>
Yes , I was watching the show "Ancient Aliens" and they referred to the "BLACK PLAGUE " as being spread by alien visitors who wished to wipe out humanity ..........
of course how in the heck could anyone know the actual amount of people that died due to events in those olden days ......but they estimated 75 million died
Fascinating! This is just the type of thing I like to read here.
Cents and nickels also have abnormally low mintages. The nickel, dime, and quarter (and maybe the cent and half, too) also show subtle variations for the type, mainly with the style of the numerals of the date, that's restricted to this one year.
I was under the impression that the big silver dollar melt down was due to the vast amount of silver the US loaned/sold to England to fund their war efforts and that the Pittman act was more of a re-alignment of the silver cert to actual silver deposits, no?
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was. >>
I always wondered if it could be black pox or sheet pox? >>
I thought the Black Death was bubonic plague.
>>
There is a lot of questions as to it being bubonic plague due to its rapid spread. It is doubtful bubonic plague could spread as quickly as the black death spread. Now it might well have been pneumonic plague which is also caused by the bacterium Yersinia pestis, but is airborne, not vector dependent. That could explain the rapid spread. That or it could be possible it was another airborne issue like black pox.
<<I was under the impression that the big silver dollar melt down was due to the vast amount of silver the US loaned/sold to England to fund their war efforts and that the Pittman act was more of a re-alignment of the silver cert to actual silver deposits, no? >>
The Pittman Act was the blueprint for providing the silver to England from silver dollars and their eventual replacement. So many silver dollars were melted that silver certificates had to be withdrawn from circulation. This also was provided for in the Pittman Act by the issue of Federal Reserve Bank Notes backed by another feature of the act, Pittman bonds. There was a shortage of silver certificates even before the Pittman Act as you can note by the issue of $1 and $2 United States Notes in series 1917.
I wasn't here in 2005 when you posted it...or when it was bumped in 2008...and I missed it in 2010 it seems...glad this thread was brought back to life. Good read! Thanks.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Comments
I will question one of the original statements.
<<2) The commodity prices became inflationary which caused silver prices to run up in sympathy in 1917 to as high as $1.336 in 1919. At such point, it cost the US Mint more than face value to mint the silver coinage.>>
There was no silver dollar coinage in 1917. I believe subsidiary silver coinage works out to $1.3838 per ounce. Wouldn't that still be a profit for the mint?
Now I do not understand the immediate post WWI gold situation. When and how did a citizen get the right to obtain gold from the government again. Gold certificates did not resume until 1922 and till about that point the Fed and local banks were pulling gold and gold certificates from circulation. Actually the Fed was hoarding all paper money other than Fed notes. If anybody has any good information on this, please post.
I would like to propose a few other candidates: 1922, 1924, 1925, 1926, 1930, 1931 and 1932.
Probably many of the causes of the low-mintage 1921's were still in play for the no-mintage later dates.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I do not grasp the proposed cause-effect.
Excellent thread. After reading RWB's earlier post that referenced his Renaissance of American Coinage, 1916-1921, I pulled that volume from my book shelf and had trouble putting it down. There is a wealth of information in that book that directly pertains to the current discussion. And, although there are many factors to consider regarding the reasons for the lower production of subsidiary silver coinage than silver dollars in the early 1920s, I was particularly taken by the following quote on page 186:
At times the mint earned a profit of 40-cents or more per coin on striking standard silver dollars. Naturally, similar calculations applied to subsidiary silver, however the profits were larger since a dollar in dimes, quarters or halves contained less silver than a single dollar coin.
In my opinion, the reason for the relatively lower mintages of 1921-dated subsidiary coinage is multi-fold and complex. Perhaps factors such as the 1918-19 flu pandemic had some downward pressure on the production of coins and maybe the post-war economy had a similar influence. However, drawing such conclusions is too speculative in nature, whereas reading contemporary Mint documentation from that era and understanding the complexities of the various laws at play provide a more tangible explanation.
The flu epidemic was a major force in 1918. Some businesses shut down
because their workers died or were in hiding from the flu.
Children and healthy young adults would get sick in the morning and be dead
by evening. Most diseases ravage elderly populations because they are least
capable of dealing with the symptoms but a similar and less deadly flu in the
1880's gave them a partial immunity and even those who became ill were more
likely to survive. This flu affected younger people and tended to kill.
The 1918-1919 Influenza definitely played a role in contributing to the 1921 recession (was really a depression!) which reduced demand for silver (and other coins) in 1921 and 1922.
How big a role? I do not know. I never stated how big a role it played. But I firmly believe it did play a role in the depression of 1921.
Numisma stated:
<< <i>In my opinion, the reason for the relatively lower mintages of 1921-dated subsidiary coinage is multi-fold and complex. Perhaps factors such as the 1918-19 flu pandemic had some downward pressure on the production of coins and maybe the post-war economy had a similar influence. However, drawing such conclusions is too speculative in nature, whereas reading contemporary Mint documentation from that era and understanding the complexities of the various laws at play provide a more tangible explanation.
>>
I am merely pointing out that it probably played a bigger role in the 1921 silver coin rarities than most people realize. To state that (1) overproduction in earlier years resulting in surplus supplies, and (2) the passage of the Pitman Act of 1918 as the primary cause of the drop in silver coin production is overly simplistic and not necessarily true as evidenced by the production mintages of 1922.
Furthermore, just remember that the estimated gross national product plunged 24% from $91.5 billion in 1920 to $69.6 billion in 1921. The number of unemployed people jumped from 2.1 million in 1920 to 4.9 million in 1921!!!
I also suspect that the sea change in reduction of of mintages of half dollars (in 1921) and gold coins (which began 10 years earlier) may have led to a more obvious and permanent futuristic reduction in the demand for such coins as the American public became used to working in commerce without the half dollar and gold coins. Somehow I get the impression that only the Vegas and other casinos were large users of the half dollar and dollar coins until recent years.
Box of 20
<< <i>just curious what is meant by silver having anti-bacterial properties if known? >>
Silver inhibits (bacteriostatic), or kills (bacteriocidal) germs depending on factors such as concentration and length of time in contact.
Before refrigeration, people would drop a silver dollar in the milk container to retard spoilage.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>
Before refrigeration, people would drop a silver dollar in the milk container to retard spoilage. >>
Ah yes, the old dreaded milk spots.
Hey, smoebody was gonna say it.
+1
This had the very interesting discussion of the different causes affecting the low mintages of 1921 and 1922 USA coins.
Interesting addendum is that Canada was not subject to the Pittman Act as they were/are a foreign country and yet their 1921 coinage are world famous for their extreme rarity.
It's all about the history baby.
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was.
<< <i>
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was. >>
I always wondered if it could be black pox or sheet pox?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was. >>
I always wondered if it could be black pox or sheet pox? >>
I thought the Black Death was bubonic plague.
I thought this was a thoughtful and well researched post about macro-economic reasons behind production of coinage.
Are there similar mintages figures available from major European mints and do they buttress Oreville's argument? The situation in Europe would include not only Spanish Flu. Consider economic devastion due to the draining expenditures on war materiel and the loss of a significant proportion of men of prime age (call it labor infrastructure) who might have been productively useful in industrial economies. The impact of both of these factors and the Flu should be expected to have made their situation much worse than ours.
I realize the conflation of these confounding factors precludes any valid comparisons. I'm nevertheless curious about European mint production figures.
This is not an argument for these two factors being the only ones operating.
The unemployment statistics for this country are also illuminating. How many doughboys were mustered out? What percentage of the work force might they have been. Was industrial production down due to a lack of international customers?
It's too easy to state that any one or two factors had all the impact. And that's not what Mr. O is saying. He's saying "Consider this" and giving us some reasons to consider it. RWB is saying "Consider this" too.
Like the 30 year old beer commercial with Steinbrenner and Billy Martin which had Billy saying "I feel very strongly both ways"
And for both reasons, as with Charlie the Tuna (good flavor/good taste).
But how could both of them be right?
As our very own King of Siam said "It's a puzzlement"
<< <i>
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was. >>
Yes , I was watching the show "Ancient Aliens" and they referred to the "BLACK PLAGUE " as being spread by alien visitors who wished to wipe out humanity ..........
of course how in the heck could anyone know the actual amount of people that died due to events in those olden days ......but they estimated 75 million died
Cents and nickels also have abnormally low mintages. The nickel, dime, and quarter (and maybe the cent and half, too) also show subtle variations for the type, mainly with the style of the numerals of the date, that's restricted to this one year.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Very interesting post. I also did not realize there was so many death caused by the influenza pandemic. >>
I think - but am not sure and too tired to research it - that the Black Death killed a higher percentage of the (then much smaller) population than did the 1918 flu.
Interestingly, there remains some doubt as to exactly what the Black Death was. >>
I always wondered if it could be black pox or sheet pox? >>
I thought the Black Death was bubonic plague.
>>
There is a lot of questions as to it being bubonic plague due to its rapid spread. It is doubtful bubonic
plague could spread as quickly as the black death spread.
Now it might well have been pneumonic plague which is also caused by the bacterium Yersinia pestis, but is airborne, not vector dependent.
That could explain the rapid spread.
That or it could be possible it was another airborne issue like black pox.
<< <i>
<< <i>just curious what is meant by silver having anti-bacterial properties if known? >>
History of colloidial silver. >>
thestig -
your avatar look's like a Philippine monster of the 3rd degree - oh man would I love to have it .........
the theory about aliens wiping out humanity to scarf up all the silver is in the dumpster .......
The Pittman Act was the blueprint for providing the silver to England from silver dollars and their eventual replacement. So many silver dollars were melted that silver certificates had to be withdrawn from circulation. This also was provided for in the Pittman Act by the issue of Federal Reserve Bank Notes backed by another feature of the act, Pittman bonds. There was a shortage of silver certificates even before the Pittman Act as you can note by the issue of $1 and $2 United States Notes in series 1917.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.