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Philippines proof question

coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
in World & Ancient Coins Forum
On the early 20th-century Philippines pieces, is there a definitive way to tell a proof from a PL business strike?

Edges? Rims?

I had picked up a 1904 (no S) 20 Centavos at the show last weekend as a business strike, but the fields and devices have me thinking that it may be a proof...(sorry, no pics yet).

Thanks.
Numismotography

1/2 Cents

U.S. Revenue Stamps

image

Comments

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,873 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A really sharp, square edge is one sign of a proof. It's tougher to spot on reeded-edge coins.

    There are some coins where it's really, really tough to say. I dunno much about the Philippine proofs of that era, never having handled any, but I've seen pics of some and they are nice.

    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
  • JusthavingfunJusthavingfun Posts: 835 ✭
    Between Lord Marcovan and your original post, I think you have it.

    There are a lot of indicators, but often no one definitive tell-tale. In those cases, you just have to put the clues together and decide on the preponderance of the evidence. The best tell-tales I've found on these coins are ...

    1. Reflectivity of the fields. But I have an 1892 Columbus Commem half, struck only as a business strike, which looks entirely like a proof. So the fields alone are often non-definitive.

    2. Lord Marcovan is right about the rim; the biz strikes often slant down. But that's not invariable, and in any case, it's no help at all if the coin's slabbed.

    3. I often fall back on the detail in the devices, and that's what I find most reliable. Mount Mayon, on the obverse, is usually extremely well articulated on the proofs with a wealth of detail on the body of the mountain. The business strikes not so much. Lady Liberty's foot is another tell-tale: on the proof 20 centavos, you should be able to see all the toes and perhaps even some or all of the toe nails. And check out Lady Liberty's hair: except for the 1908 50 centavo proof, which was struck from a damaged (rusted?) die, the hair detail on the proofs should be at least 95% there.

    On the reverse, the feathers on the eagle's chest are all there on the proofs; usually not on the business strikes. And if the wing tips have weak or no feathers, probably a biz strike.

    Hope this helps.

    Enjoy!


    Just Having fun
    Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
  • USAROKUSAROK Posts: 887 ✭✭✭
    1904 is a difficult year to differentiate between the silver proof and mint state USA-Philippines coins. This thread has images of my 1904 Ten & Twenty Centavos coins in the first post and some information about the 1904 Philadelphia USA-Philippines coins in a post about halfway down the first page.

    I hope this helps and I look forward to seeing an image of your new 1904 Twenty Centavos coin.

    USAROK
  • TaiNoHenkaTaiNoHenka Posts: 30
    In addition to the all of the indicators mentioned above, another helpful tell-tale would be to check for flow lines.


    Tainohenka
  • FilamCoinsFilamCoins Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭

    Yes, Yes, Yes!

    There is not as much cartwheel on the proofs. More of an even matte finish in the fields (although more brilliant than typical matte).

    And the denticles on the proofs are sharper and more pronounced.

    Very tough to tell the difference sometimes, especially with the bronze.

    Mr Fun & Taino, should get that 05 Centavo back from NGC soon and we'll see if we were right image

  • SpinynormanSpinynorman Posts: 603 ✭✭
    Not a good picture, but I think this 20 centavos is a proof. The light cartwheel made me wonder about it, though.

    image
    image
    imageimageimage
  • JusthavingfunJusthavingfun Posts: 835 ✭
    I agree Spiney Norman! Look at that detail on Mount Mayon. I can't tell if Lady Liberty's hair is complete detail or not, but I can see her toes very clearly. And on the reverse, full chest feathers and feathers out to the wing-tips are tell-tales.

    All that plus the obvious luminosity of the coin says proof to me. A grading service may say otherwise, but generally speaking they really don't know how to make the call on the US Philippines. I've had to send back more than one coin to get the right attribution. Usually, they've just taken my word for it. But once I had to send a coin back with letters from a few numis big-wigs in the Philippines before they'd take the clue.

    Nice coin. VEry attractive. Enjoy!


    Just Having Fun

    Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
  • FilamCoinsFilamCoins Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭

    Oh man!! image

    Not only does it look like a proof, but it's one of the prettiest ones I've seen!

    Between this and the beauties I've just sent you, I think we have a new PHILIPPINES fan image

  • JusthavingfunJusthavingfun Posts: 835 ✭
    I agree Spiney Norman! Look at that detail on Mount Mayon. I can't tell if Lady Liberty's hair is complete detail or not, but I can see her toes very clearly. And on the reverse, full chest feathers and feathers out to the wing-tips are tell-tales.

    All that plus the obvious luminosity of the coin says proof to me. A grading service may say otherwise, but generally speaking they really don't know how to make the call on the US Philippines. I've had to send back more than one coin to get the right attribution. Usually, they've just taken my word for it. But once I had to send a coin back with letters from a few numis big-wigs in the Philippines before they'd take the clue.

    Nice coin. VEry attractive. Enjoy!


    Just Having Fun
    Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
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