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Flea's market found, what are???

goossengoossen Posts: 492 ✭✭
in World & Ancient Coins Forum
Found these today at the flea's market. I have no idea about the 2nd, but the first looks like Chinesse ?

image
My coins with pictures: http://www.paraguaycoins.com/

Comments

  • AethelredAethelred Posts: 9,291 ✭✭✭
    I'd guess the first one dates to the 1700 or very early 1800s, but the second one looks quite old.
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  • SpinynormanSpinynorman Posts: 603 ✭✭
    I've got a Japanese 1 Mon that is similar, but definitely not hte same. I think it dates from the 1650s or thereabouts. It's not worth much, but I like it.
    image
    imageimageimage
  • goossengoossen Posts: 492 ✭✭
    Similar to which one Spinynorman ?
    My coins with pictures: http://www.paraguaycoins.com/
  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The first is a Chinese cash coin.

    The second I am not so sure about.

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  • RickeRicke Posts: 677 ✭
    I believe the second one presents itself to be chinese cash of Ta-ch'tain wu-shih - 50 cash. (7-22 AD), under Usurper Wang Mang

    I'm not sure it's authentic though. The patina looks a little odd.

    The first one is far more common - 1821-1850 Tao-Kaung cash coin. Books about 50 cents american
  • RickeRicke Posts: 677 ✭
    actually, now that I look at it more - the first one appears to read (top and bottom) Ch'ien-Lung - which should make it around mid 1700s.

    sorry.
  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought the first looked like a Chi'en Lung, too, but I have no reference handy and wasn't too sure about the squigglies- they elude my memory.

    Late 1700's rather than mid-1700's, wouldn't it be? Peking Board of Revenue Mint?

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  • RickeRicke Posts: 677 ✭

    Could be. This issue was made throughout most the mid to late 1700's. I guessed mid because of the crudeness of the rim.
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    The coin to the right is indeed from the Wang Mang interregnum. Ding Fubao says these coins first came out in the second year of Wang Mang's reign (8 or 9 AD, depending on the source). I don't know about the value or the authenticity but I don't think the patina looks odd. It could be the real deal. The coin to the left is from the Qianlong reign. The Qianlong Emperor was one the throne from 1735 to 1796. The mint appears to be Yunnan, not Beijing. This makes it a little less common than most coins from this period but I don't think it will fetch any sort of premium.

    Here is a pic of the Qianlong Emperor:
    image

  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Ricke, were the changes in rim quality during different portions of the Qianlong reign?
  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

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  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Manchu is not easy to read...
  • goossengoossen Posts: 492 ✭✭
    WOW thanks for your answers... The guy who sold me the coins didn't know a thing about them (me either but was sure I will get help here), I swapped these 2 pieces plus an actual coin from Isle of Man for 4 Poppy coins from Canada.
    If they are authentic I think it was a good deal! Is there any method to probe if they are real? Weight? Size maybe?
    My coins with pictures: http://www.paraguaycoins.com/
  • shirohniichanshirohniichan Posts: 4,992 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Manchu is not easy to read... >>



    Neither is ancient kanji as on the second coin.

    It looks like the left to right characters are for "fifty" and the bottom one is for "Sung" (or "Song", depending on the dialect-- "shuu" in "shuukyou" in Japanese).
    image
    Obscurum per obscurius
  • goossengoossen Posts: 492 ✭✭
    Look what I've found!

    image Ta
    image Ch'uan
    image Wu
    image Shih

    "TA-CH'UAN WU-SHIH" (Great coin value 50). These are the only coins to circulate during all five of Wang's reforms, and today be very common. We see a great variety of sizes and weights, from about 1.5 to 10 grams. It is likely that the heavier specimens are the earliest and the lighter ones the latest, although specimens under 3 grams are likely contemporary counterfeits. There is a wide variation of calligraphy styles, probably indicating dates and mints, but this information has been lost to us. The high rims protect the coins from wear and these are seldom seen below a grade of VF.

    What is the material of this coin ? Copper ?
    My coins with pictures: http://www.paraguaycoins.com/
  • RickeRicke Posts: 677 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Manchu is not easy to read... >>



    Neither is ancient kanji as on the second coin.

    It looks like the left to right characters are for "fifty" and the bottom one is for "Sung" (or "Song", depending on the dialect-- "shuu" in "shuukyou" in Japanese). >>



    ancient hanzi - kanji is the japanese application of the chinese written language into japanese.
  • RickeRicke Posts: 677 ✭


    << <i>Ricke, were the changes in rim quality during different portions of the Qianlong reign? >>



    I don't know. it was a guess, really. I've seen examples of later issues at the turn of the 1800s, and from memory, they seemed a lot more evenly rounded and slender... so I guessed at mid-1700's. The years you gave are correct though, by character designation, it could be during any time of the Qian'Long.
  • RickeRicke Posts: 677 ✭

    Wu-Shi is 50... I think the extra H is beijing pronunciation. They put extra Hs on everything... frankly, I don't get it, because it makes pingying very difficult.


    edit: that's not right.. it's Rs for the beijing dialect.. I can't explain the H.

    There you go, 2 years of chinese in college - obviously time well spent. (no font for sarcasm available)
  • shirohniichanshirohniichan Posts: 4,992 ✭✭✭
    In case anyone wants the Japanese pronunciation, it's "Dai-Sou Go Juu." image
    image
    Obscurum per obscurius
  • ColinCMRColinCMR Posts: 1,482 ✭✭✭
    the ta-ch'uan wu-shih coins in Schjoth's 'The Currency From The Far East' are said to weigh around 12 shu.

    I'm not sure how to convert shu to other units, but you could use that to find out if it's authentic. Apparently at the time many varieties were made because of private minters and rampant independent, illicit minting. I'm sure that modern fakes exist too. It looks real to me from here, but i'm no expert at all, the metal i think would be bronze.
  • ColinCMRColinCMR Posts: 1,482 ✭✭✭
    The coin on the left i also believe is from the Yunnan province mint. Schjoth # 1480

  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Shiro, the Japanese reading of the bottom character is "sen/izumi" as in onzen no sen. (fountain, spring)

    ancient hanzi - kanji is the japanese application of the chinese written language into japanese.

    Ricke, this is an excellent point. In a way, "Chinese" characters are not really Chinese, given that they are important parts of Korean and Japanese as well. I have been in Chinese language classes where people call hanzi "kanji." We could avoid this problem by simply using the word "characters" or "script." Or we could use "hanzi" for characters used in Chinese, "hanja" for those used in Korean, and "kanji" for those used in Japanese. Of course, "hanzi," "hanja," and "kanji" are the same word with the same characters. It would be nice if we could use the appropriate readings for the coins from different countries as well. For example, the coins that were in circulation in Choson for 200+ years were not changping tongbao, but rather sangp'yong t'ongbo.
  • shirohniichanshirohniichan Posts: 4,992 ✭✭✭
    Why is it "daisen"? What does "big spring" represent?
    image
    Obscurum per obscurius
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Shiroh, the character for "spring, fountain" can also mean "coin" or "money."
  • goossengoossen Posts: 492 ✭✭
    Should I try to "clean" the 50 one ? Or I should leave as is ?
    I'm afraid to make any damage on the coin, but i'm also afraid to get it corroed if i don't not clean the dirt.
    My coins with pictures: http://www.paraguaycoins.com/
  • ColinCMRColinCMR Posts: 1,482 ✭✭✭
    nope, no need to clean it
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    I agree. Leave it as is. It is a nice piece.
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