Tampered B.Orr rookie (PSA 7): Seller's final answer **UDPATE**

Brian48

*** UPDATE ***

For those unaware, this is in reference to my other post regarding a 1966 Bobby Orr rookie that I bought that turned out to be a card in a tampered PSA slab.

Well, I have the seller's final answer. I will have to persue this with PayPal. That said, I see no reason why I can't mention the seller's eBay nic at this point: macattaq, auction#5245967790

I would also post the seller's real name, address, and email, but I think that's against the rules here.

The following is the correspondence that went back and forth between me and him. I honestly believe I was being very civil and fair (please tell me if I was the one being too hard), but it seems obvious that I was just giving him to much as far as the benefit of the doubt. Live and learn, but as I said before, this really sours my attitude towards what this "hobby" has become.

Anyway, if anyone has ever had to go through this, if you have any tips from your experience, I'd like to hear it. Thanks, Brian

=====================================================

Me:

I have no idea what you meant by your last sentence. If you are implying that I should have sent the card back to you "as is" so that it could be sold off to some other unsuspecting buyer, that wasn't going to happen.

In any event, if you won't take the card back, then that is all the answer I need. Regardless of whether I contacted you first or not, does not take away from the fact that I have been ripped off and ripped off by you. What I got was not what I paid for.

I will take this as your final answer so I won't waste any more time being fair with you. And yes, I feel I have been very fair up to this point.

macattaq:

I really dont know what to say I guess you have to file a claim. It was your decision to try and have psa buy back the card or whatever you were trying to do. It was wrong to make no attempt to discuss this with me regardless if my auction says no returns on graded cards. My auction also states I will do my best to insure your satisfaction but you did not give me that chance. Now you want the money back but you dont have to return what I sent you. It seems I am supposed to take the fall for the decision you have made so you have to do what you have to do.

Me:

I was refering to my question regarding a refund. You have not indicated one way or the other that you would take the card back and return my money. In regards to having it regraded, I would prefer not having to send the card back to PSA for a second time, wait for them to process, re-ship back to me, and then re-ship back to you. This is because I am literally running out of time to file that claim for the $1000 insurance from PayPal, should that be my only remaining option. This is not personal nor is it a matter of trust, just procedure.

If you are willing to grant me my refund now, I will gladly send the card back to PSA for regrading and have them ship it directly to you. I would use their EXPRESS service to ensure a quick turn-around time and would email you the online order# and postal DC# the very same day it goes out.

Please let me know what you think. Brian

macattaq:

What I suggest now is to get the card graded again can you do that? thanks, Jon

Me:

Jon,

I have received the card back from PSA. Please let me know how I should proceed at this time.


macattaq:


Ok please let me know when you have the card back. thanks, Jon

Me:

It is currently still in PSA's hands. They said they would send it back once the supporting documentation I have requested is ready.

macattaq:

Brian where exactly is the card now? Jon

Me:

Jon,

As I mentioned before, I never thought that you were responsible for the tampering. If I did, I would have immediately taken this issue up with eBay+PayPal and sent you a "less than friendly" letter. Just so you know, in my discussions with both PSA and PayPal, I specifically mentioned that I did not thought that you were responsible for this and specifically asked for options that would be best for both of us.

To be honest, there really isn't a whole lot they told me other than to ask for full refund and then try and help you recoupe your losses by providing you with whatever assistance I can in persuing the individual you got this from. I would return the card to you along with all the accompanying documentation once PSA is done with it. The auction is covered up to $1000 by PayPal, however I can't claim that without filing a dispute, which is something I don't want to do since I don't believe you knowingly did anything wrong.

PSA did mention that they were interested in knowing who you got the card from so they can make the attempt to track at what point the card changed hands and was tampered with. I suspect they want to know so that they can blacklist this person from using their services going forward, but this is just a guess on my part.

That said, would you be able to grant me a refund? I am willing to take it in increments if that is easier for you. Like I said, I am not out to make life difficult for you. The way Isee it, we both got screwed on this matter.

Brian

macattaq:

Ok Brian as you can tell by my feedback I do work with everyone as best I can. If you would have emailed me stating you found a crease on the card I would have sent your money back since I already lost money on the card. The person I bought the card from does not answer my emails. I dont know what to do at this point all I know is I had nothing to do with the tampering and I will examine all holders much closer from now on. let me know what the next step is thanks, Jon

Me:

Jon,

I am not out to bring you down or cause you a problem. From your feedback history, you clearly a reputable seller, but obviously, I do feel I deserve a refund, but only with the understanding that we work together so neither of us loses out. The legal channels I would have to go through are also available to you as well to persue the person you got this card from. PSA has offered their full support in any claims filed, whether it be for your benefit or mine.

In regards to contacting you about the card to begin with, I apologize, but according to your auction description, this was not a negiotable matter - "No Refunds on graded cards". As I indicated before, I did not think this was your fault so I took this matter up with PSA assuming it was their error. I had no reason to involve you at that point.

Please try to understand my position. If you were in my shoes at the present moment, what would you do? Brian

macattaq:

I am getting the feeling that you are going to come after me for the money by your words. I dont think this is fair you never contacted me about the card or returning or sending it to psa or anything. That is not fair to me whatsoever.


Me:

Can you find out if you can get a refund from the person you got this from? It would allow you to refund me without a loss to you. Obviously, the appropriate documentation will be supplied with any claims filed. Also, Shane has recommended that we do this so they can track at what point the card was tampered with.

macattaq:

Brian what do you want me to do? Jon

Me:

I returned it to PSA because I thought it was an overgraded card, not because I thought the slab was tampered with. If that was the case, I knew they would have bought the card back from me, thus sparing you any of this grief. Once again, I assumed that you were not aware of this issue and you did specify that there were no returns for graded cards in your auction description. The PSA rep I spoke with is Shane Silva (800-325-1121) and he will corroborate everything that I tell you now. If this is a recent purchase for you as well, Shane suggested that you contact the seller that you received this from as well. The original submitter, according to Shane, was Platinum Promotions (Sub#190056, 10-24-2004).

The only other recourse I have is to take this up with PayPal, but that would detrimental to you so I would prefer not to go that route. Brian

macattaq:

That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. Wht did you send it to psa? If you were concerned I would have returned your money now the card is out of the holder? I dont know what to tell you I bought it on ebay I can give you the item number if you want it/ thanks

Me:

The PSA slab had been tampered with. This ORR card is NOT the one that was originally in this holder. PSA has done the investigation, confirmed the problem, and is forwarding me the documentation and as well as the returned card (they had to remove it from the holder). From their records, it appears that you were not original submitter so I don't blame you for this, but I will need you to work with me on this in order for both of us to get the appropriate compensation. Please email me when you get this message so we can discuss this further.

=====================================================

Thanks for reading.

WinPitcher

Brian I am sorry the whole affair sucks.

Mcattyq does have a foot to stand on in that you should have spoke to him first, regardless of what his ebay description states about graded cards. however with that said he is no novice and he has sold PSA cards before and thus he should have spotted the problem with the case , hell we can see it from the scans! It is because of that fact that I think that you are in the right.

By going the PSA route you somewhat threw a monkey wrench into the mix.

I would go the Paypal route now as you do deserve the money back as you did not get what you thought you were getting.

I hope it works out for you.

hang in there bud.

Steve

acowa

Unfortunately, you're going to have to force this guys hand. You need to make it unpleasant for him.

Small claims can get you a $5000 judgement...and then take your chances collecting. I am not up on the cost of Orr Rookies in PSA 7.

If it's over $5000, the easiest way to make sure that $5000 keeps you whole is the following scenario. You have a card with some value. I would get it graded and see. Your damages are PSA 7 SMR less what it comes back as.

Good luck. Your situation left me with a sick feeling in my stomach.


Regards,


Alan

A761506

I think the seller is 100% responsible, and it's tough crap that he'll be out - he was the one who ultimately sold the tampered card. The fact that he has had such a civil conversation with you implies to me that he is reputible (to a point). I think if you pushed him, he'll fold, at least to some degree. I think you're going to have trouble filing any suit against him as jurisdiction is pretty questionable, especially since the transaction took place in two different states. But, there's nothing stopping you from making him think you're coming after him. At this point, you have nothing to lose, so might as well try your best to give him a guilt trip and tell him that you are out for blood.

Best of luck,
At least you still have the card, albeit probably a PSA 5.

yawie99

Definitely a nauseating situation, Brian. I don't really know what to tell you other than good luck and I hope everything works out. If something like this ever happened to me, I think I'd sell it all and say to hell with the hobby.

acowa

Go to your local county courthouse and fill out the paperwork and pay the $40 to file the suit. It will apply the necessary pressure to the seller to make you whole. It's not difficult and once he knows your serious his attitude should change.

ranger63

<< <i>Go to your local county courthouse and fill out the paperwork and pay the $40 to file the suit. It will apply the necessary pressure to the seller to make you whole. It's not difficult and once he knows your serious his attitude should change. >>



this will work....but when i filed a suit it had to be done where he lived. took a long time but he was finally arrested and i am awaiting a judgement. has been over a year and i was only burned for 2 grand. good luck.

BigtimeBowmanfan

I have dealt with this seller many times and have always been happy. I do understand his point regarding contacting him first. I truly believe if this was done he would have refuded the $'s involved.

Sh1tty situation all the way around. At least it has remained civil and there IS communication.

Brian48

Yeah, I can understand his frustration also and really tried to sympathize, but who's to say that he could have simply responded saying that it was PSA's fault and that I needed to take it up with PSA? His aunction did say NO RETURNS ON GRADED CARDS. Also, I had no idea the slab was tampered with at that time and thought the fault was with PSA, not him.

In any case, that's not the issue. It was a different card in a tampered slab - bottomline. Whether he did it intentionally or not is irrelevant - I got ripped off. I even made an offer to allow him to pay me back in increments and for me to regrade the card for him at my expense.

Anyway, thanks for reading, this is a small update to our dialogue. I think it's the last formal correspondence between the two of us. I've already submitted the claim to PayPal tonight with everything I had. I don't expect anything of it, but at least I didn't take this lying down and have the knowledge that I've taken out at least ONE bogus slabbed ORR off the market.

==================================
Brian:

I've already explained my actions. They were very legitimate. Re-read my previous emails, of which I drafted VERY carefully. Regardless of whether you returned the card or I did, the card was still TAMPERED with. What you sold me was BOGUS. I have given you the opportunity to do the right thing.

In any case, looking at the present situation, what exactly are you saying? If I get the card re-graded and shipped back to you (at my expense), you will grant me my refund? Or are you saying I am just out of luck? I do not want to play this dance any more going back and forth. I do not have the time. I made an offer to do the re-grading for you if you refunded my money as a sign of good faith. A simple answer of Yes or No would have sufficed.

Unless there is anything new to say, I will take this as a conclusion of our correspondence and include it with the supporting information I will submit to eBay and PayPal. Brian

macattaq:

Hello so I could have returned the card too. But it seems you already new so you would not return it to me? I really dont understand your actions at all.

WinPitcher

hold on a sec here..........in the other post the scans were underlined in green where frost was apparent. I have assumed that is the way it was sent? if so how could the seller miss that???

SD

edit......if you get back a grand from paypal, maybe this guy will also refund you a grand and he gets the card back.??

maybe that could be the deal.

Brian48

He claimed ignorance in his email response.

Brian48

<< <i>edit......if you get back a grand from paypal, maybe this guy will also refund you a grand and he gets the card back.??

maybe that could be the deal. >>



Nah. He would still be screwed. PayPal would give me the grand and then persue the full $2024 from him. Assuming he pays them, I would get the remaining sum and PayPal would be reimbursed the $1000 previously granted to me. I would have to send the card to either him or PayPal. If he doesn't pay, PayPal would restrict or suspend his account and eBay would remove him from the eBay community. Essentially, all that nice feedback built over the years would go down the drain. This is what the PayPal rep told me.

SDavid

shedding a little light here - this guy buys cards off ebay under a different id and then tries to flip them a little bit later (nothing wrong with that). With that said, I can understand his frustration with you for not contacting him first. If you had, he might have had time to get a refund himself either directly from the seller or by filing a claim as you're doing.

Should he have recognized that the slab was tampered with? Probably, but you missed it too.

It's a crappy situation anyway you look at it. Hopefully, you two will work it out. I don't think paypal will intervene in your favor. Winning an item not as described case is pretty difficult.

packCollector

did you pay with a credit card? if so charge him back the whole amount, your credit card will side with you since you received fraudulent merchandice no matter who the fraud was , either the seller or someone before him.

as far as you should have contacted him, I contacted a seller once when I received a piece of crap card even though he said "ALL SALES FINAL ON GRADED CARDS" and the seller told me , "it states all sales final , take the issue up with PSA." The seller is playing both sides on this issue , he can't say all sales final and then say I am not refunding you on the fraudulent card I sold because all sales are not final.

by the way this card must have changed hands at least twice before you if it wasn't the seller being a fraud. Platinum Promotions is Len Pottie who is one of the best hockey sellers out there. Since it was graded just a year ago , it would be very easy to track since 3 parties are already identified, I doubt it could have bee nsold to many more times.

SDavid

Brian -

I thought this might be of interest to you or PSA.

Here is the link to the auction where macattaq bought the card. (That's his buyer id that I referred to above). It's clearly the same card. Notice that the flip has the same mark on it as well in the bottom right hand corner.

1966 Orr PSA-7 purchased by macattaq from Red-Zone aka Shaqfu1

ps - I don't know the guy. Just happened to notice that cards bought from one id were being relisted under another one.

packCollector

I think this is very good information , you can almost see the crease in the scan since you know what to look for. so now there is at least this chain

Platinum Promotions
Red Zone( already tampered with based on the scan in the sale)
macattaq
brian48

so in less than a year we already have 4 owners

edited to add:

NOW I AM REALLY CONFUSED , FROM THE PSA SUBMISSION FORM IN THIS THREAD, THE CARD WITH THE M/G IS THE CARD IN QUESTION

4 12021849 1966 TOPPS 35 BOBBY ORR N/A 6
4 12021850 1966 TOPPS 35 BOBBY ORR N/A M/G

jerster

Bummer dude. I feel your pain.

FRNAllStar

How can you prove who tampered with the item.


When people recieve stolen merchandise they don't get refunds. I knew of a guy as a 2nd owner who bought a 2000 honda dirt bike in year 2000 at $4000 it was repoe'd and he was out all his money and we the seller(dealership) recieved our bike back since the original owner wrote a bad check and was at fault, not the 2nd owner. He just loss all his money to the 1st owner and the bike(he had no title). It was sad to see a 20 yr old kid cry. This happened when my manager said there was nothing we were gonna do for him. We didn't have too! We were a popular dealership too! I was a sales associate.

Point taken is that you can't prove who messed with the card. You bought it with a No refund on the Ebay contract. You recieved and own the card. PSA won't help out.

So I think you should bite the bullet. Be more vigilant. Ebay has it's risk.

Your also giving the seller of this item alot of hardship. He could be responsible. He could not. Either way he is engaged in an uncomfterable situation.

This is a point of view from a stranger of the masses so please take it in as a perspective from a different personallity.

5STAT

this last post is way off the line...
The point is simple...his "no refund" policy is for legit goods..and in good faith.
When he sold a card that was tampered with or counterfiet...he is at risk for knowing what he is selling...not the buyer!! If he sells it off and a legit PSA 7 and stands by it and it not....THAT is fraudulent, whether he knows it or not...Ignorance is not an excuse to escape the law.

If I get a $10 bill that is counterfiet...I get in trouble for trying to pass it, whether I know it or not!! And "I'm" out the $10....at the least.
Same deal should apply here, whether he contacted the dealer 1st or not....GET THE CARD OUT OF THE MARKET....that is what's most important. It'd obviously been more than once.

If you sell inferior/stolen/damaged/counterfiet goods and say "hey, I didn't know"......then you should be taught a lesson.

With that said...I'd go full bore after the dealer who sold it. The used car saleman mentality of 'it's your problem, no refunds ..sorry" honestly won't get him past a judge...guaranteed...

Then the chips can fall where they need to....he can go after whoever he got it from...

A761506

Ok... now there is a new twist... Red Zone (ShaqFul1) is in the mix...

Red Zone does not exactly have a stellar reputation. They finally stopped selling their trimmed cards in GEM holders, but I would not put it past them to pull a stunt like this. Whoever Platinum Productions is, I would take a guess they are very close to Red Zone, if not Red Zone themselves. You should find out the zip code of that submission number you mentioned... I'd venture a guess that it is a zip pretty close to 12033, which is Red Zone's zip. Red Zone has a lot to lose if you can trace the switch to them, and link them with Platinum Productions.

NickM

A761 - forget trimmed cards in GEM holders - Red Zone has also been known to alter jersey cards to substitute special multicolored patches for plain swatches, and is one of the leading sellers of counterfeit Star basketball cards in GEM and Capitol Grading holders (as exposed a few months ago by Steve Taft and SCD).

There is substantial reason to suspect that Red Zone has now taken to tampering with PSA holders.

Nick

packCollector

I think the seller macattaq is a fool for not dealing with you. he bought the card from a dealer , has evidence (auction listing with scan) it is the same card he bought. NO WAY did Red Zone miss that the holder was tampered with . They either did the switch or bought the card for a steep discount knowing it was switched. They would probably immediately refund the guy his money on return with documentation from PSA. He would probably even make out by getting his purchase price back. By telling you "too bad" he is going to lose everything out of his pocket, have paypal after him and ruin his reputation. not the smartest move! you should email him and make these points same the red zone auction page and see if it smartens him up .

WinPitcher

There is substantial reason to suspect that Red Zone has now taken to tampering with PSA holders.


I agree.

Platinum sold a legit Orr...........Red Zone to mcattq (ignorant) ? to Brian.


SD

wallst32

I would have agreed that the seller should take some accountability, whether he knew the card was tampered with or not, IF the card was still in its original state. But now that the card is cracked you would be returning an item that was tampered with from the state you received it in. Has anyone thought about this from the seller's perspective? How does he now the buyer isn't the one trying to pull a fast one? How does he know he is even getting a genuine card back? As a general rule of thumb that applies to all goods; breaking the seal voids the warranty.

The current owner is basically trying to shift his own problem entirely back to the seller, and that will put the seller in the hole instead of himself. Everyone seems to agree the seller is an honest dealer, and if so, he was lucky to NOT notice the problem, and the buyer was unlucky for being more observant. To everyone saying it is obvious the holder was tampered with, the buyer had card in hand and did not realize it until he received confirmation from PSA (I'm assuming he would have mentioned in his post if he noticed it, but all he mentioned was the crease).

The bottom line is this; a card was tampered with, which means whoever is holding it is going to get burned. Unfortunately for the current owner, he is left holding the bag, and just looking for recourse from anyone, whether justified or not. You typically can't buy something, do whatever you want with it for a month, then say I don't want it anymore and get a full refund; a line has to be drawn somewhere.

No offense to the buyer; it is unfortunate what happened. But what is really sad is everyone who frequents these boards knows about this type of "problem", and can still get burned by it. And also this card was graded in late 2004, so the "problem" has not gone away.

Stingray

Based on the link provided that shows when the seller bought the card, you can tell that the flip is the same with the tear in it. So it appears to me that it was tampered with prior to his purchase.

Stingray

packCollector

<< <i>As a general rule of thumb that applies to all goods; breaking the seal voids the warranty.
>>



wall st, psa broke it out of the holder then by your theory PSA is liable since they are the ones who changed the original state of the card. I think this came up with the rose card.



<< <i>You typically can't buy something, do whatever you want with it for a month, then say I don't want it anymore and get a full refund; a line has to be drawn somewhere.
>>


agreed, but you can't really sell fraudulent items and say tough sh*t either. credit cards allow 60-90 days for a fraud chargeback, psa allows 60 days so maybe that is where the line is drawn since this card in a resealed holder it is outright FRAUD

aro13

Platinum Promotions is who I submit my cards through as they are the Canadian Dealer who does PSA submissions. So the fact that the submitter is Platinum Promotions does not indicate who the card was submitted for. It was probably submitted for somebody else who in turn sold the card. Platinum Promotions would probably have nothing to do with the original card.

Brian48

Just for those don't remember how this snowballed, here is the older thread I started when I initially got the card. It started out as an assumption that the card overgraded, NOT that the slab was tampered with. The only way to be sure was to send it back to PSA for a second opinion.

It was PSA that took the card out of the slab because there was no way that they were going to allow it to continuing to change hands throughout the market. This is something I agree with and if the seller is upset that he can no longer dump it on some other unsuspecting soul, that's just too bad.

Letter from Ivan Lopez, Ops Mgr

PSA Scan of card prior to removal from slab.. Mind you, this is a scan of a color photocopy and not the card itself.

I've already supplied this information to PayPal for their investigation. Look, I feel sorry for the seller too. If you read through the email exchange, I even mentioned that I thought we both got screwed, but 2 grand is alot of money for me to just dismiss. Especially since his initial reaction to me seemed like he was more upset that he couldn't make a second attempt to resell it as a PSA 7. I just don't see why he couldn't still persue this against the seller he got it from whether the card was still in or out of the slab. To me, that was irrelevant. We (and I stress *WE*) have the proof, the documention, and the full support of PSA who said that they would have vouched for both myself and the seller, should he wanted go after the person he got the card from. I wanted him to be reimbursed just as much as I did.

Stingray

PSA states in their letter, that this is not a card that has been graded by PSA, was it correct to say that.


Stingray

Daeyel

Yes it is correct to say that.

Remember, they also DNA the cards they grade, and this is PRECISELY why. They stuck the card under the light, and hey, no dna! This card has never been graded!

Quite frankly, macattaq is a fool to not go after redzone. Apparently he paid more than 2024 for the card, as he claims he sold it for a loss. From what some have said, it would be easy to prove redzone is quite the shady type.

Perhaps he just doesnt want to go through all the legalities? Well, at this point, he doesnt have a choice, because he is going to be out the full amount, without the card. He might as well hit redzone for the money he was robbed of. Maybe he can get them shut down.

Stingray

I was under the assumption that the card was the actual card that was graded and was suppose to be in the holder. It was the flip that was changed out? Unless I missed something in an early thread?

Stingray

acowa

Does it bother anyone else that PSA distroyed the evidence by breaking the card out of the holder? It looks like they could somehow mark the holder as tampered with. That way, the card is sent back in the holder with no confusion whatsoever.

Regards,


Alan

WinPitcher

yes............that is just another reason why this whole sordid affair sucks.

SD

rbdjr1

Brian, in my opinion, you have a good case, because you did the right thing, getting this tampered PSA card "out of circulation".

Sour grapes to the seller. He sold you what amounted to a "counterfiet item". He needs to take it up with Red Zone, or whoever stuck him with the item.

If you bought a rare "ten dollar" US currency note, and you found it to be a counterfiet, would you send it back to the note seller for a refund? You could, but you would have broken the law because you have the legal responsibility to send it to the proper law enforcement agency or simply destroy it yourself.

The difference here, is it was a PSA tampered item, and just like the US Government, PSA had a legal and moral right to "crack and destroy" that bogus/tampered-with holder. Maybe you only had a moral obligation to send it to PSA and not to the seller, but there may be a legal arguement that you also had a "legal" as well as a "moral" obgligation to send this "bogus item" back to PSA, and not back to the seller.

Good for you Brian! I hope you get rewarded for your moral (and IMO correct) decision to send it back to PSA!

The facts are pretty clear to me, and should be pretty clear to the seller. You had a moral obligation to send the item to PSA and you took that path.

DAMN IT! GIVE BRIAN HIS MONEY BACK WHOEVER YOU ARE. OTHERWISE YOU ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A SLEEZEBAG!

rbd

edit: P.S. I would contact the President of PSA, and have him read this thread, and ask him for some help. You purchased this rare item (sight unseen, except for a scan), on the good faith of this rarity being legit, because it was in a PSA holder (..and what you believed to be an "up & up" seller!). Gee, if I remember correctly, PCGS was created to "make a sight unseen market" between the "bid and ask". Well PSA may have been created to act in a different manner, ...and Brian, I'm sure you purchased this rare Orr RC mainly because it was in a PSA holder. Come on PSA, help one of your consumers, that purchases $2000 items because the item is in one of your slabs, and not in one of your coffins! He did the right thing, he sent it back to you! Help him!

jmbkb4

This situation is better than the X-FILES conspiracy! Nice detective work, Mulders!

yankeeno7

Red Zone/Shaqfu lives in a town approximately 10 miles from me. I don't know the guy and I have no idea if I have ever met him. He certainly doesnt do shows around here...probably because collectors would rip on him for the bogus crap he sells. Avoid these guys...they are ripoffs. They overgrade their raw and there have been a lot of problems with their graded and that "GEM" grading company scam.
Edited to say this is only my opinion!

Brian48

Well, I got my answer back from PayPal, however I still have some reservations.

1. The language below still doesn't guarantee that I will get a full refund.
2. It requires that I send the card back to him first, but how do I know I can trust him? He can always claim the box I sent him was empty.
3. I am leery about the term "original" condition. The card itself is in the original condition, but it's no longer in the same holder. Also, what's to say that he won't crease it and claim that I damaged it?

I guess I'll give PP a call to discuss this before packing this up again.



<< <i>We have determined that you may be eligible for a refund on this PayPal
transaction. To qualify for a refund, just return the item in its original
condition to the seller. (You are responsible for shipping and handling
costs for the returned merchandise.) The amount you will be eligible to
receive is determined by the terms of our buyer protection policies and we
may be unable to make a full recovery of your payment from the seller.
Please review the buyer protection policies in our User Agreement
(https://www.paypal.com/ua) before shipping the item back to the seller.

The seller has provided the following shipping address:

[SELLER'S ADDRESS]

Please log in and provide tracking information for the item you are
returning within 10 calendar days. The seller will also receive the
tracking information for this item. When the shipment is verified by
PayPal, the refund will be issued to you. If you do not provide this
information to PayPal, the investigation will end and the claim will be
cancelled.

You may also choose to cancel this claim if you wish to work directly with
the seller to resolve this issue.

Thank you for your cooperation.


Sincerely,

Protection Services Department
>>

MuckyMutt

Brian, save your $.10 on the phone call - I really doubt you'll get to speak to a real person. But it doesn't matter. Send the card back with Delivery Confirmation (that part is important!). Inform PayPal of the tracking number. You will get your money back when it shows delivered (on-line tracking). The only way you would not get your money back is if the seller has no funds in his account. But I am assuming he is continuing to do business on Ebay, and therefore <i>will</i> have money is his account at some time.

Although PayPal makes it sound iffy, the way they carry out their policy makes it just about automatic for the buyer. Good Luck.

Lothar52

let me know what happens if you call them...i have to do the same with a auction in which i was sent the wrong card and am getting a refund...i got that exact same email you did... PM me.

Loth

Brian48

Well, unfortunately, PP wasn't much help at all in regards to my specific questions about the legal verbiage used and many loopholes this guy can take advantage of. They just kept telling me send to "just send it" and go from there. Anyway, it's on it's way back to the seller and I've submitted the tracking # to PP. We'll see what happens next.

packCollector

if there isn't money in the sellers account (which there won't be) then the maximum you will get is based on paypal's buyers protection. I think you are going to get scr$wed imo. you won't have the card and you won't have the money and the seller will have both

jmbkb4

keep us posted. good luck

SDavid

if there isn't money in the sellers account (which there won't be) then the maximum you will get is based on paypal's buyers protection. I think you are going to get scr$wed imo. you won't have the card and you won't have the money and the seller will have both

They'll debit the seller's paypal account, so he'll either have to quit using paypal or pay off the balance.

Brian48

Well, I feel a little bit better. I just checked and the seller just posted several high dollar items for auction, some of which have a 9 day duration. Unless he asks all the winner bidders to pay with a money order, I think this is a good sign that he'll have some funds going in and out for a little while.

julen23

I purchased and entire 1969 topps set from redzone and was very happy. Not to be devil's advocate, but I have had a (+) experience w/ them.

Julen

packCollector

<< <i>They'll debit the seller's paypal account, so he'll either have to quit using paypal or pay off the balance. >>




For 2 grand , i think he will open up another account in his wifes name or another relative before he pays the debit



<< <i>Well, I feel a little bit better. I just checked and the seller just posted several high dollar items for auction, some of which have a 9 day duration. Unless he asks all the winner bidders to pay with a money order, I think this is a good sign that he'll have some funds going in and out for a little while. >>



no way will he use that account to get paid on the auctions, his account will already be reflecting the negative balance and he knows he would not get the money

SDavid

If I can believe the stories on the paypal message board, Paypal can freeze his wife's account - or any other paypal account - if they determine that it is being logged into from the same computer.

Here's an example of the opposite thing happening. I saw that story a while back when I was having trouble logging into my account.

paypal horror