That ORR rookie was tampered with!

Brian48

This is a follow up to this thread.

Well, it looks like I've been screwed. The slab had been tampered with and the flips had been switched. They're returning the card to me now (removed from the holder) and with all the documentation on the matter. I've sent this email to the seller:



<< <i>The PSA slab had been tampered with. This ORR card is NOT the one that was originally in this holder. PSA has done the investigation, confirmed the problem, and is forwarding me the documentation and as well as the returned card (they had to remove it from the holder). From their records, it appears that you were not original submitter so I don't blame you for this, but I will need you to work with me on this in order for both of us to get the appropriate compensation. Please email me when you get this message so we can discuss this further. >>



I did pay with PayPal e-check, but I'm not sure what they coverage is for something like this. Has anyone ever gone through something like this before?

A761506

Wow, wasn't expecting to hear that... looking at the original scan you posted, it's somewhat evident where the holder was tampered, along the right and lower edges. At least they didn't come out and say that the card was switched with a counterfeit also.

I suspect you're going to have a royal mess getting any sort of refund/compensation from anyone unless the guy who sold it to you is going to hold himself accountable, which in theory he should, but probably won't.

I am curious to see how much help PSA will provide, as they know the identity of the submitter who obviously owns a PSA 7 that they just keep sending in and cracking for the flip. More than likely, that same person also has submitted at least one other Orr, which is the one that you now own.

I do not understand why PSA did not regrade the card after they broke it out of the tampered holder. Seems like they could have at least done that, assuming it was unaltered and authetic, as I think you're going to be the owner of it.

This is yet another reason PSA needs to redesign their slabs. You would have thought something would be in the works after that disaster with the shady card shop you all know about. The redesign wouldn't need to be a complete overhaul, as you want uniformity between the existing slabs and redesigned ones, but the case needs to be designed in a way that if it is tampered, it is unquestionably obvious, even in a picture.

Good luck with everything, hopefully there will be some relief for you.

duner

if it was tampered with, you're screwed. I don't think you really have any recourse. Even if they weren't things don't look that good, I sent 3 cards back to them a couple months ago that were gem 10s....but they were all counterfeits. psa bought them back, but at a price they determined, which was about half of what it would cost me to repurchase legitimate ones.

Brian48

PSA said they would provide any documentation needed to support my claim and/or may whatever necessary phone call if necessary. They could not regrade the card since that might cause a problem with any claims I may file. They said the original submitter was a place in Canada back in late Oct 2004. They provided me with the original name, submission# and date, but there's no telling how many times the card has changed hands since. I would hate to put the seller in a bind since he has a great track record, but I'm not sure what to do if I was pressed to file a dispute in case he is uncooperative. I know with PSA's support and documentation, I hold the advantage in any formal dispute.

A761506

You need more help from PSA still... you need to get them to check and see how many and how frequently the original submitter sent in Bobby Orr rookie cards for grading, and also see if the grades on them have a pattern. I suspect you would find a pattern of a PSA 7 along with a PSA 5 or 6, which was then switched. Then you have a shot at a case against the original submitter if there is evidence that they were the ones who did the tampering.

A formal dispute will accomplish nothing, as I don't think you have any recourse. Unless you purchased the PayPal guarantee when you paid, I doubt they will be willing to do anything. The guy who sold it to you should be the one who takes on the responsibility, as it was his responsibility to determine that the card had been tampered before he sold it to you. You need to convince him of that, I think that's your only shot.

Knuckles

Brian,

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, hopefully the seller will do the right thing by refunding your money. Good luck with this.

Garret

Southerncards

Aw come on, nobody can tamper with a PSA slab.......blasphemy I say!


on a serious note, sorry to hear about your luck. It seems that the switcheroo scandal is alive and well and still biting collectors in the rear. Again, sorry.

Brian48

Well, he didn't sound too happy about it. Told him I wanted a refund and that both myself and PSA would support him if he chosed to go after the person who screwed him. I haven't heard back from him since my last email, but I'll grant him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's in shock. I also called PayPal and it's not a problem to file a dispute. Considering the mountain of evidence that's piling up, I don't think I'd have a problem winning. Actually getting the funds back is another question. Worst case scenario if I win and he still won't grant the refund, this auction was covered up to $1000 with PayPal Buyer Protection. It wouldn't be a complete loss, but it's still pretty painful.

GetSiriusNow

Was there anything about the PSA case that looks tampered/damaged in any way. It looks like there is a small tear in the label. Is this tear unusual? Scary to think about someone switching cards without any evidency of tampering. I thought these were supposed to be tamper evident. It really makes me have a feeling of distrust towards the hobby again.

Brian48

frolico,

I replied to your PM.

GetSiriusNow,

The bottom of the case looked fine to me. According to PSA the card was switched, but what I personally think happened was that the flips were switched. I was told the frosted areas near the top is epoxy. The tear in the flip is a result of the process.

I actually took one of my cheaper cards last night and cracked opened the slab just to see how evident the tampering can be. I was actually surprised that the frosting was not as evident as I thought it should be. With a little care, I would have been able to reseal the slab.

Seraph

Usually tiny cracks or uneven 'clouds' along the edges of the slab are a giveaway sign. I never thought anything of it until I got burnt with a PSA 10 Shaq UD #1 RC. I was wondering how scratches got INSIDE the slab and there were tiny cracks along the edges. The card looked fine, but the slab just didn't look right.

Now if I suspect something is amiss, I would ask for close-up scans of the slab. If a scan is unavailable, I'll just pass.

shagrotn77

<< <i>if it was tampered with, you're screwed. I don't think you really have any recourse. Even if they weren't things don't look that good, I sent 3 cards back to them a couple months ago that were gem 10s....but they were all counterfeits. psa bought them back, but at a price they determined, which was about half of what it would cost me to repurchase legitimate ones. >>



Why the heck are so called experts slabbing counterfeit cards as PSA 10's??? What were they anyway?

DaBigHurt

I'm sorry to hear about your situation.

As for filing a dispute with Paypal, yeah, you can file it all you want, but I can pretty much guarantee you they won't be able to do anything for you. The guy who scammed you, if he had half a brain would have withdrawn the funds from his Paypal account a long time ago. If you're lucky, you'll get a canned email from Paypal saying "we found in your favor, but couldn't recover any money since the seller withdrew all his money." Most likely, Paypal will just send you a canned email saying, "sorry, after a through investigation, we cannot do anything for you, but thank you for supporting Paypal."

Seriously, don't count on any help from Paypal. Your only hope is if the guy does indeed do the right thing and return your money. Perhaps threaten feedback, involving local law enforcement authorities or something.

Knuckles

Has anyone ever tried a good heat gun on a slab? It's scary to think that it would work but if it did some how losen up the slab enough to open without use of prying with a knife yikes..

wallst32

Be careful with a PayPal dispute. Even if PayPal rules in your favor, you are required to return the item back to the seller with proof of delivery FIRST. You then forward the tracking information to PayPal. After the item is received and confirmed, Paypal would TRY to recover the funds from the seller. In the event they can't recover the money, you are the big loser; no item no money.

Do you know if the seller is a full time dealer? Does he sell high volume, and more importantly high dollar stuff? If the answer is yes, he probably can't hide from PayPal for too long, and you should have a shot at getting your money back. I suppose he could try to kill his current account and open a new one.

RobMM77

Wow, this is scary guys. How can we stop stuff like this and does the others (i.e SGC, BGS, GAI) have the same problem?

sagard

Any chance you could post the Ebay auction?

Ruthfan

It's a simple solution. PSA needs to get off their asses and put out a holder that is tamper resistant. You would think they would have learned by now.

5STAT

The problem persists today, aorund every corner there's someone always trying to make a quick buck.
I saw a Jordan PSA 8 that I was near purchasing for a set...it wasn't until I looked down the side of the slab that I realized the groove in the middle of the card was filled in. You know, where top slab meets bottom slab. Upon further inspection, I saw a TINY crack on the side of the slab that appeared to be fill in....and it was...with super glue!!!

It was a NEAR perfect job..and I'm sure in the right trade show hall...or dark corner of some store...it would go absolutely un-noticed.

Good luck with your claim..the seller should jump through hoops to try to solve this for you..it's his loss too. Otherwise, HE is suspect in my book.

Brian48

If I don't hear back from him tonight, I'll assume he doesn't want to work with me and will file the claim. The way I see it, he has just as much to lose since this is more than just negative feedback and he has spent a long time trying to build a good reputation.

Regarding the holders, you either love BGS or hate them, but their holders are about as tough and as tamper evident as you can get. In fact, you darn nearly need to destroy parts of it in order to get it open. I wish PSA would go for something more secure than what's in place. It might have been fine when they first started, but the hobby has evolved and the only thing they have updated is the font on the flip.

Knuckles

I've found SGC holders to be the easiest by far to open when crossing 5 sgc's over quite awhile back... 3 of the 5 popped open with hardly any muscle, the other two were tuff.. the cases were perfect, not a scratch. A jackpot for some one with no morals unfortunately. Keep in mind this was only with 3 of 5 slabs, I have no idea how many would be that easy out of 100.. 1000.. *shrug*

BigtimeBowmanfan

I crack and resubmit all the time and PSA are the easiestby far to open almost perfectly. In fact ia have 10 or 12 that i saved because i thought that without the flip they would make good storage for other cards just to display. Never really thought about a seller doing this but it is scary. The majority of my subs go to GAI and SGC because i think there grading on the t cards which i collect now is much better. ( This is obvious if you look from one service to another at what your cards grade at ) If i was doing post 1933 or so i WOULD look to PSA but this kind of issue raises serious ?'s about my doing this. I would very much like to get involved with PSA again but my issue's at this point are...... Poor cust service ( the worst in the buisness at this point ) Some pretty inconsistent grading which can be a problem with all of them as we all know and now the slab security. GAI and SCG slabs crack and shatter when opened and i have never been able to even think about saving one for storage.

I am sure some will disagree with my thoughts but this is how i see it for now.

BigtimeBowmanfan

Just saw knuckles post and am amazed about the SGC holders cracking easily. I have had just the other experiance.

Oh well

Onlypsahockey

Hi Brian,

Sorry about the bogus Orr. How you making out with the seller? Please keep us updated.

Best of luck, Bob C.

FYS

<< <i>Hi Brian,

Sorry about the bogus Orr. How you making out with the seller? Please keep us updated.

Best of luck, Bob C. >>



Are you certain is was tampered with? I think PSA has a history of simply breaking the card out and stating is has been tampered with instead of saying that there was an error in the grading. If they left the card uncracked, you would have had a better chance for a 3rd party to examine and determine if there was true tampering.

In any case, PSA broke your card out. It is there word against the selling that it was tampered with. You are going to get nothing, as PSA will spend no time helping you, besides sending a letter that states that the holder was tampered with. Unfortunately, this opinion is quite biased in a court of law, as they have a great deal to lose if they were to say anything else, but the card was tampered with.

If only a company existed that had a true guarantee?

phreakydancin

FYS, check out the scan in the other thread. No doubt the slab was opened.

SDavid

They said the original submitter was a place in Canada back in late Oct 2004. They provided me with the original name, submission# and date, but there's no telling how many times the card has changed hands since.

I assume they determined this from the card's flip, but I don't understand how that information is supposed to show the identity of the crook who either switched the flip or the card. It would only show the identity of the person who submitted the legit 7...and god only knows where that card is right now. The crook likely just bought a legit 7, pulled the old switcheroo, and resubmitted the 7. Maybe they should be investigating submitters who have submitted multiple 6's, 7's, or 8's of that card (hey, it's not like grades don't change).

SDavid

I sent 3 cards back to them a couple months ago that were gem 10s....but they were all counterfeits. psa bought them back, but at a price they determined, which was about half of what it would cost me to repurchase legitimate ones.

Sheesh, that's even worse. Trim jobs are one thing, but I always figured you could at least count on grading companies to spot fakes. What were the couterfeits?

calleocho

Greed.

The switched card could happen to any of the big 3.

PSA being the biggest one is simply the logical target.

Its a wonderful hobby...i hope you hang in there and get most of your money back.

jad22

That just sucks. I hope you get your money back some how. I haven't cracked many psa graded cards but I found the 3x5 autographed index card holders to come apart very easy and without leaving any marks. I can imagine it is very hard to stick in a new card and sell. Kinda sad.

calleocho

Most of our purchases are done online and this leads to an over reliance on grading co's.

its easy to see a problem after you have the card in hand ...but not on ebay.

PSA needs to be more agressive in their holder's security features...too much money on the line. Card looks authentic ...something is wrong with the flip.

Seraph

I think it's been tampered with. These 'clouds' (see the green underlines) are not normal and I bet there are small cracks on the edges in the same areas:

Brian48

I have been in contact with the seller, back and forth several times. He was upset that I did not immediately take up the issue with the crease as soon as I noticed it. Told him that I did not think the card was tampered with initially and that I assumed this was a case of mis-grading, and if that was the case, it was PSA's responsibility, not his. Also, his auction specifically mentioned "no refunds on graded cards". It's neither here nor there at this point. Bottomline: what I got was not what I paid for, and I wasn't about to let this card get passed onto some other unsuspecting sap.

He knows that I am after a refund, but has not confirmed either way whether he will grant it since neither one of us has the card right now. As soon as I get the card back from PSA, I will give him only one chance to grant the refund. If I don't get it (or most of it as a sign of good faith), I will be the filing the dispute so that (at the minimum) I can claim the $1000 insurance. Mind you, I can only give one chance because of the pending 45 day deadline in which I can file this dispute with PayPal. Otherwise, I'd be more lenient in working with this person as far as time goes.

Brian48

FYI, I don't believe the card itself was switched from the holder. I think the slab was cracked just enough swap out the flips. This would also explain the slight tear on this one. I should have taken that into account before I bid on the thing.

Onlypsahockey

Brian,

Keep a close watch on that 45 day deadline. Also if you used a credit card thru Paypal you should contact them if you haven't already. They may be more helpful down the line than Paypal.

Is PSA buying the card back? Don't they guarantee the holders along with the grades? Shouldn't they accept some liability since their holder was so easily breeched? I hope they are going to provide you with more help than just the info on the original submitter.

Keep us posted. Best of luck, Bob C.

EagleEyeKid

Brian, sorry to hear about your situation and I hope you can recover your loss. The holder definitely looks tampered with and I agree with you here that it looks like only the flip has been switched. I know it would be a lot easier if the scammer wanted to remove/switch the card that he/she would have started on the bottom of the slab. Why start from the top where there are female/male receiver holes right under the flip? The card would have to pass through 2 inches of crap up on top from that starting point.

There is no clouded area on the bottom half of this card and the flip looks ripped a little. This looks exactly like a tear when I slip in the flathead screwdriver after I crack the top with pilers. I think the card is right with a switched flip.

GetSiriusNow

Thanks for pointing out the clouds. It seems obvious now that you point it out, however I see how it could be missed with a bad scan with less detail. PSA should be doing more to educate their customers on things to look for with photos/examples to point out tampering.

GoDodgersFan

Hi Brian,

This is scary for the hobby and the trend will only increase until PSA and other card grading companies
get their stuff together. I do wish you the best.

Tom

Brian48

Just an update. Got the card back from PSA along with a letter from their Ops Mgr. Forwarded the info to the seller. Let's see what happens next.



Man, this sucks.

GetSiriusNow

What did the letter say from PSA? Did the seller reveal to you where he got the card from and does he act like he wants to help find the criminal, if it isn't him.

Brian48

<< <i>What did the letter say from PSA? Did the seller reveal to you where he got the card from and does he act like he wants to help find the criminal, if it isn't him. >>



Well, the letter itself doesn't really say anything that I already didn't know. I think it was written in a way so that I could use it with an claims that I might file. They did ask me verbally over the phone as to where I got the card from.



<< <i>RE: 1966 Topps Bobby Orr #35, certification 12021850

After a careful and thorough examination of this card and holder, PSA has determined that the holder, label and card display evidence of tampering.

The holder displays a milky white discoloration along the top, left and right sides of the holder, which is uncharacteristic of a properly sealed PSA holder. This is caused by the holder being separated. The label is missing some of the read board on the lower right side; also caused by the holder being separated. The card itself has a small wrinkle in the middle on the right side which would not warrant a grade 7 by PSA.

In summary...this was not a card graded by PSA.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions regarding this matter.

Sincerely,
Ivan Lopez
Operations Manager >>

Osguard

<< <i>PSA should be doing more to educate their customers on things to look for with photos/examples to point out tampering. >>



I unfortunately had to make a call to PSA customer service on this topic. My simple request was to be pointed some a person in the company or a place on the web site that explains to me EXACTLY what "tamper evident" means. I requested that someone tell me what are the "security features" and what I should be looking for.

The only answer that I could get was a restatement repeated over and again that they are "tamper evident" and you can just tell if they are tampered with and that it is obvious. I don't know how much more vague you can get than that.

I requested to speak with someone who might be an expert on the card holders so that they could tell me what I should be looking for and I was told that I could not be forwarded to those people.

Sad.

WinPitcher

The holder displays a milky white discoloration along the top, left and right sides of the holder, which is uncharacteristic of a properly sealed PSA holder.


Holders that are not tampered with will appear clear.


SD

Osguard

Based upon what I've read on this thread and others on the topic, the milky white is a possible indicator but it isn't conclusive in all cases. A number of collectors have stated that they've received graded cards directly from PSA that have this discoloration.