MTG Signed Cards

BossM

I was wondering what everyone's opinion is on autographed magic cards.

1) Is a P9 Alpha or Beta that has been signed by the artist, of lesser value than a non-signed card (assuming that they are the same condition) ?

2) Will PSA grade cards that have been signed ? (I haven't gotten a response back from PSA)

Thanks

Thulnanth

Hey BossM,

Good question on the autos - I too have been wondering about them as of late. I do know PSA will grade MtG cards that are autographed, as I have seen and heard of several. I am not sure on the cost or exact submission procedure, however. I would guess you could just send them in via their PSA/DNA service w/a credit card and they would take care of the rest

Value of autographed cards? This will vary greatly from person to person. To me, autos are worth way more than non-autos, but only if I got them myself. I have lots of cards that I have had signed and I wouldn't trade them for anything!!! On the other hand, a signed card that is not mine has very little value to me, since I didn't obtain the autograph personally. Since all my autos are genuine and not for sale, the only reason I want some of them certified is to protect them (and put them in my registry). I would like to get some of my "better" cards (pricewise and condition) slabbed; the rest will be quite fine in my albums. I will get around to it... someday

Take it easy,
Jared

tmmoose

I was thinking about this the other day. I don't think I'd pay a premium for autographed cards... here is a perfectly good mint card, and now someone has drawn all over it. And now they want more money for it. Hmm. It didn't quite add up for me. :-)

You are at risk of getting into the 'someone has marked my bit of cardboard worth $2,000 with a felt tip and now it's worth $2,500' sort of argument... beauty (and value) are in the eye of the beholder.

I think the good part of autographs is the memory that goes with them, rather than the autograph itself. Which is, I guess, in part what you are aluding to Jared, as well as known authenticity.

Anyway, answering the question, I haven't noticed autographed cards on ebay being treated particularly differently to non-autographed cards. Some people really like them, some people don't; if people see a signed black lotus going for significantly below a non-signed one they'll probably bid on the signed one because it's cheaper. (And vice versa).

- Michael

Thulnanth

Yep - auto or no, the card still plays the same.

Memories? I can tell you the story behind each of my signed cards and a little about the artist - we are all sick, aren't we?

Take it easy,
Jared

GoblinOutpost

Yeah, I'm in agreement that autographs are not commanding a definitive premium/penalty so far.

In the long run (and I mean LOOOOONG), the item will become an antique and so will the autograph itself. I would speculate that if the person behind the autograph is of historical significance, the said autograph will command a premium. The autograph adds an extra degree of history and perhaps rarity (the fewer the better).

For Jared, that extra memory can also be worth something. Just think about taking a trip to a museum, would you be content looking at a piece of art with no description of its name, history, or significance. Or seeing the name plague and a description that details the importance of the piece. I would certainly feel more in tone with the art given more knowledge.

Your thoughts?

-- Joe

Thulnanth

<< <i>the name plague >>



LOL - if I was at that museum, I'd flee in "terror"

Take it easy,
Jared

Osguard

"LOL - if I was at that museum, I'd flee in "terror""

A terrible side-effect of your friends always playing pestilence decks against you in the old days Jared... I curse them for you!

I can definately see the personal value to you in having it signed first-hand by the artist because it has the memory of the meeting. They don't generally have any value for me though, and if I am interested in a card that is signed, I won't even bid on it. I think I'm more in Michael's camp of, "why would I deface my mint card!??" I would be more likely to do it with a non-mint card, if at all.

-Tony

GoblinOutpost

Damn, my mind and my fingers are not in sync. Glad you guys had a good laugh.
-- Joe

tmmoose

I did briefly think about the idea of getting slabbed cards signed on the basis that you can always reholder the card if you decided to sell it on and someone didn't want the autograph.

Then I thought, that's a bit of hassle, so why not put the slabbed card in a sleeve and then get it signed. Then you could remove it if you want to sell it on without the autograph.

Then I thought, I'm just being ridiculous and stopped thinking.

- Michael

Edit: Typo

GoblinOutpost

Hahahahaha, Michael. Now you are really trying to cover your bases. Have you any idea what kind of writing instruments you want to use (on stab, on sleeve)?
-- Joe

tmmoose

Presumably, if you were hardcore, you'd take some sort of engraving instrument and ask the autographer to engrave their name on your slab.

Failing that, I reckon a black felt-tip (permanent obv.) would work pretty well.

I'm sure I was going to stop thinking.

- Michael.

Tromagic

I have seen on PSA that they won t grade a signed cards if it doesn t come from the factory or artist himself. They need to witness the signed card is from the artist.
I don t think you can realy be sure that a signature is from a artist living now if you don t see him signing. There is poeple that are realy good to sign like the artist ... I would never buy something signed more than a non signed.
Beside this i would only make sign my junk from an artist. A PSA 10 lotus is very rare because it s perfect, there is no default. if it s signed there is inc on it and inprint of the signature ... It no perfect at all !
And it drop in value.
Now a Fishliver Oil in exelent condition is much better if it s signed (if you are sure it s the artist that signed it )

Thulnanth

Hey Guys,

Well, it would seem we are ahead of the curve - on PSA's homepage they have just announced an agreement between WotC and PSA/DNA for card authentication and encapsulation. It is nice to see a growing relation between these two, although I suppose the net result will probably invove me spending even more money...

Take it easy,
Jared

Osguard

Thanks for the heads-up Jared. I have to learn to start reading the front page. Very interesting, big news for all of us who are into this; and a good thing. That alliance is sure to raise exposure of graded cards to the MTG community to some extent.

What does that say about the past and current process regarding validation of MTG?

What does this mean for our already graded collections?

Tap4black

Hey Guys,

This new process has no relation to grading of the cards. This service was developed to thwart the amount of counterfeit cards that are showing up in higher and higher numbers as the values of the cards continues to increase. The goal is to have the higher value cards authenticated so they can be used in tournaments and traded with a guarantee that both parties are trading in a genuine item.

The plan from how I understand it is to place an invisible to the naked eye security threrad on a genuine card that can only be seen with a special frequency laser. They will then place the card in a sleeve that shows the card is genuine. This sleeve is easily opened for those people that want to take the card out and use it in their deck.

2 dealer friends of mine just returned from Italy where the European Type 1 championships were being held. They told me that over half the cards they were offered for sale were counterfeit. The problem is rampant in parts of Europe and the fakes are getting better and harder to spot unless you really know what to look for.

I have been approached by the originators of this process to be one of the authorized submission centers for the DNA marking so I'll try and get more information when I speak with them this coming week. I believe Wizards is going to implement a mandate that cards of a certain value must be marked in this fashion at some point in the future to be used in Vintage or Legacy tournaments that they sanction.

Len
Tap4Black

Thulnanth

Wow, that's cool.

Osguard

Len-

Is it your impression then that this will in no way increase the skills of the people at PSA who verify the authenticity of the higher priced cards that they grade?

Will this strand be added to certain cards when they are graded and slabbed?

Tromagic

I bought 4 P9 alpha/beta and 3/4 was recolored ... i lost arround 300 USD selling them back as recolored. I got even some bad rare and common i sent to PSA and they came back recollored ... I kept some because the recolloring man did a great job. so if someone tell me he can see fake/recollored easy i can see if what he say is true by asking him wich one is the recollored and witch one is not

On unlimited P9, i recieved one that look exelent + (PSA 6) graded PSA 2 .... PSA told me there is no mistake but they didn t tell me why it s a PSA 2.

I wonder if it s not possible to open a box of a card graded by PSA and place an other card fake or recollored or in less good condition inside and seal the box again.
I am very scared of this because then we could loose ton of money ...
I saw already some cards on ebay sold from Russia or Italy with new card inside the PSA box.
I know it was replace because the number on the card when i check it on PSA said it was a sport card and inside was a Lotus Beta or Alpha.
But imagine a guy that put a alpha lotus (fake or recollored) in the box of a alpha lotus PSA 9 then he send the lotus (real) to PSA again ... he get a new box for a new lotus alpha PSA 9 ... and so on.
Or he could do that with any other cards ... He just need to investe in the cards once and he could make 40 000 USD easy that way...
What do you think ?

Thulnanth

Hey Bastien,

It is very tough to crack open a PSA slab and then reseal it without any sign of tampering. That being said, you do need to be sure to examine any slab before you buy, just to be safe. No matter how you buy vintage MtG cards there is some risk - at least with PSA the risk is lessened, thus my reason for using them .

Take it easy,
Jared

Spacebaby

I agree that the liklihood of tampering with a psa slabbed card is low. When you crack the seal, it is very obvious that this has occured. Could someone possibly do it, sure. Could the send a fake card through to get reslabbed, I doubt it. PSA's whole added value is based upon the reasonable assumption that the card is authentic and real. On a reslab, they must check the validity of the card. I know of one case on a reslab for Nicksmc where the card dropped froma 10 all the way to a 7 because of damage to the card. So they do check.

Thieves will be thieves. There are always people who have little and will try to get ahead through deception. Personally, I don't get deceived alot. I have had a few bad deals, but in hind sight, I should have known better. The warnings were there. The best thing that I can do is not give them my money and shake a smaeful finger at them when I do smell a rat. Here's my basic thoughts on ebay:

Know who you're dealing with. I will pay a higher price to DACardworld than I've seen on ebay because I know what I will get and how I will be treated. I tend to experience the higher end of ebay pricing on my ebay auctions because the buyer perceives that I am highly likely to deliver the stated goods. Many of you can attest to this.

The problem comes in when we are "bargain" hunting. The reason that cards sell for less from dubious listings, is precisely because of the perception that the seller is more likely to fail to act honestly. That's why it is cheap. I find the key is to really look at the seller and their feedback history. I will buy from sellers with little feedback at times. Here's basically what I look for:

If the person feedback history is selling magic cards, I want to see previous history of selling and delivering cards of similar quality and price. For example, if he sells a bunch of 9 edition and recent cards for $0.25 ....then all of a sudden has a choice beta wrath, then I don't bid. If he hasn't had many auctions where I can see the actual listing on their feedback (i.e. feedback too old to see listing) I dont bid. If something in the listing leads me to believe its fishy, I don't bid. Just a hint of that fishy smell is enough to make me stop and not buy.

What I am looking for is truely the casual collector who is selling some nice cards. I like to see feedback from stuff other than mtg cards. In these cases a scan or proof they posess the card is good. I prefer a digital scan versus ripping some jpeg off the net and posting that. It's in finding htese casual sellers that some gems may be found.

On high end stuff, I just wont buy it unless it's someone I've dealt with, or very established ebay seller (red stars preferred). So my best advise is to buy from sellers who you have bought from before. It doesn't just save you money, it saves you alot of psychological income. By not stressing, or not being angry I was ripped off, by pittying the fools who try to cheat and steal, I come out much further ahead than sheer dollars. My enjoyment of the collecting experience is graetly enhanced.

So be careful and buy all your cards from me!

GoblinOutpost

I can track old threads on the forum about ebay sellers switching cards or switching labels. In all cases the case can be determined as tampered (frosting along the edge) but that gives very little comfort to the buyer who has to chase after the seller for the $$ back. Sme of the sellers are smart enough to show fuzzy pix or use a background that can conceal the frosting on the listing.

Steven said it best to deal with reputable sources. BUt like all things, we are dealing with humans and mistakes will get made. Good part is a good dealer will be a lot more easier to deal with in recouperate your $$ back. That to me is a very strong incentive and warrant a premium. The down side I also read is about crook can also develop a good reputation selling undetectable frauds on ebay. Unless there is a strong measure to punish these crimes, more and more people will venture into the dark side as technologies make it that much easier.

But I do like the news about the nano-technology. I can envision the day PSA would add the thread as part of the authentication process. But the thread would do us commoners little good, cause none of us (ok maybe except Steven and Len :-) ) can afford a scanner ourselves. And by the time we can, the crooks can also afford to put the thread in themselves.

I'm not being pessimistic, but rather realistic. For someone coming from the software background, I learned there are no PERMANENT foolproof mechanism. One just has to stay ahead in the game.

-- Joe

Spacebaby

Sure, thieves always try to obscure the facts, put up fuzzy pics, etc. That's why it is important to be willing to walk away if there is even a hint of dishonesty. These folk prey on buyers avarice overiding common sense. I've found the thieves are usually one step ahead of any enforcement method. They find the holes and exceptions. After exploited, the fixes come. That's why my point is not to look to the technology in front of you for solutions, but rather the technology between your ears. Prudence and control as a buyer are everyones best defense. So if you see something in a deal that is off or just not right, BEWARE!!!! It works. Again, we're not talkin about an honest mistake. We're talkin about outright fraud. In the case of fraud, it does take two parties. The defrauded party must understand their culpability in the perputration of the fraud. Most of the time, they let the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow override prudence.

cavaet emptor - let the buyer beware