The 1894-S Dime: Proof or Business Strike? Other questions. See for yourself and decide.
Justhavingfun
Posts: 835 ✭
Shortly after I bought this beaut, there was a long thread here discussing whether or not it was a proof.
Not having seen the coin at that time, I had nothing to add. But now I've had the chance to study it, and for what it's worth, I think PCGS got it right, and the coin is proof. 3 reasons ...
** There are clear mirrors on the coin. The mirrors are strongest on the back; subdued to be sure but clearly there. There is also an even more subdued mirror on the obverse. I'm afraid the mirrors don't show clearly in this scan but they're there.
** In business strikes, flow lines near the denticles are often visible under significant magnification. Here there were none.
** And while I do not collect the Barber dimes, I do have a few and I am not used to seeing the detail available on this coin, on business strikes.
So, again, I conclude that PCGS is proof. I also don't think it makes any difference, since I'm sure all 24 are the same. It's not like there are two business strikes and 22 proofs, or conversely. But as an intellectual question, I vote proof.
But I also noted something quite whacky about the dime. Look at the second picture, below. Some of the lettering is crudely done. There is a clear, dramatic ledge on several of the letters on the obverse. And MacCrimmon, without whose assistance I would never have been able to post these pictures (Thank you, Mac!) points out that between the "ERICA" and the denticles, there is what appears to be an "incuse scalloping."
Enjoy!
Just Having Fun
Not having seen the coin at that time, I had nothing to add. But now I've had the chance to study it, and for what it's worth, I think PCGS got it right, and the coin is proof. 3 reasons ...
** There are clear mirrors on the coin. The mirrors are strongest on the back; subdued to be sure but clearly there. There is also an even more subdued mirror on the obverse. I'm afraid the mirrors don't show clearly in this scan but they're there.
** In business strikes, flow lines near the denticles are often visible under significant magnification. Here there were none.
** And while I do not collect the Barber dimes, I do have a few and I am not used to seeing the detail available on this coin, on business strikes.
So, again, I conclude that PCGS is proof. I also don't think it makes any difference, since I'm sure all 24 are the same. It's not like there are two business strikes and 22 proofs, or conversely. But as an intellectual question, I vote proof.
But I also noted something quite whacky about the dime. Look at the second picture, below. Some of the lettering is crudely done. There is a clear, dramatic ledge on several of the letters on the obverse. And MacCrimmon, without whose assistance I would never have been able to post these pictures (Thank you, Mac!) points out that between the "ERICA" and the denticles, there is what appears to be an "incuse scalloping."
Enjoy!
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
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Comments
I have been collecting Barber dimes by date religiously since 1996.I have many Proof-Like Barber dimes.I have a 93 o in ms 68 that is very proof-like and has been referred to as "The Barber dime".This coin brought $30,000 at auction in 1989.I also have a 94 o that is Proof-Like.Since we are talking San Francisco my 95 s is also Proof-Like which came out of the Eliasberg collection which previously came directly from the San Francisco mint.
I believe the 94 s is not a proof but rather a mint issued business strike coin.BTW there are only 9 known examples from the 24 supposedly struck.
Stewart
Mark - Since you call them Presentation Strikes, Who were they presented to and for what purpose? Where are the missing 16 coins ?
Stewart
Nice to hear from you. I was wondering, just yesterday, why I had'nt seen any forum activity from you
in quite a while. We all enjoy your threads and will assume all is well.
RegistryNut
Not that it matters ... they're great classics no matter what they are.
Why would they stamp 24 for "gift" giving to bankers, and then decide to go through the trouble of melting any "extra's". Makes no sense.
I say NO WAY were 24 minted. Where does this 24 -figure come from anyway? IT IS A "GENERAL CONSENSUS". No where does the San Fran mint records say 24 were minted. I say 10 or maybe 12 at best. Given the rarity and press about the 1894-s dime, ONE new discovery should have shown up by now. I've seen one of the "por" nes, (my notes not with me on which one). It looked awful. Even though knowing the only other mint mark would be an "o", I could barely tell the difference.
Who knows, with the Garrett and Guth "100 Greatest" book out, seems a lot of mysteries are unfolding. Discovery of missing 1913 nickel, 1933 $20's surfacing, 1849-C open wreath discovery gold dollar....
Maybe 10 additional 1894-S dimes will show up. I doubt if one new one will show up.
Stewart
Minting them to round off the accounting books seems odd also. Since they are Specimen-looking, Dad Dag knew he was doing something special, and that they would be special coins known to all someday. One way to make daughter feel special/famous/well known also ???
<< <i>Well, if it is true 24 were minted, and supposedly each "banker" and Hallie recieved three each - does that signify there were only TWO bankers involved with receivership? Seems odd. FIVE bankers/V.I.P. patrons didn't "show up for dinner", so the rest were subsequently melted?
Minting them to round off the accounting books seems odd also. Since they are Specimen-looking, Dad Dag knew he was doing something special, and that they would be special coins known to all someday. One way to make daughter feel special/famous/well known also ??? >>
This would make a great detective show for Columbo!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
10 cents for an ice cream cone in 1894 seems like alot of money
especially when it was an 1894 s dime
Do you think John Daggett 's darling Hallie told her dad she bought an ice cream cone with an 1894 s dime??
One day we may know the real story
but
until then, I'll listen to my common sense
What I would really like to see are several identical resolution images of business strike 1894 Philly dimes, an 1894 proof, Blay's 1893-O and 1894-O, the Eliasberg 1895-S, as well as the Legacy 94-S. Let's put them up and discuss the particular die characteristics similarities and differences.....game?
fresh polished dies? How uncanny!
But why would a die need polished beforehand, the striking of a mere 24 coins? Was there a set of 1893-S dies used to strike the 1894-S dimes?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
O.K. Mister Smarty Pants - My common sense tells me all the other dimes are in the same place.I would say they were either destroyed or one person has them.
You have the correct definition of die striations.However since there were only 24 1894 s dimes struck we can agree that the die striations did not wear away.I will tend to disagree with you that true PROOF coins have pronounced die striations.Show me one Barber dime besides a 94 s with pronounced die striations Mr.Smarty Pants ?????
Since you tend to disagree with me as a sport,Do you honestly think the 94 s dimes were made as Proofs ? Come on coin guy just say you agree with me that you don't think 94 s dimes were made as proofs.
Stewart
Stewart,
I see you are at it again. How about Lloyd buys all of us dinner at FUN and we can sit down like gentleman and discuss these issues?!!
Jack
I want to go. And I will even bring my 94-S.
The 1894 s Barber dime book is done and it should be printed by years end.
The 1894 s dime is definitely not a proof.Proof by definition is defined by the method of manufacture,not how the coin looks.If the mint which struck the coin did not intend it to be a proof,it is not a proof.
The 1894 s dime was first called a proof in 1945,when it was first sold at auction.Since then all auction references said it was a proof.
Part of the reason it was called a proof I believe was that in 1945 calling it a proof made it more valuable and more desirable.
Some facts in the book
90% of what everyone believes about why 94 s dimes were struck is incorrect.
One thing to think about,regarding Earl Parker,Mr. Parker never stated that he purchased two coins from Hallie Daggert.The bankers story did not come from Earl Parker.This story is absolutely false.
Regarding the grading services,I have spoken to Ken Bressett,John Feigenbaum,Mark van Winkle and a few other experts,all who examined the 94 s,none thought it was a proof.
The diagnostics on the coin shows it is not a proof.
There are several reasons and facts in the book that shown the coin is not a proof.
The finish is what you would see for first strike specimens.
There were 24 struck.The book also tells the date they were struck.There are several mint records and documents which absolutely clearly states that 24 1894 s dimes were struck.
Kevin Flynn
My area of concern:
I would find it difficult to believe that so many of the unaccounted 1894-S dimes were melted. Also, by whom? Melting down of such a low denomination coin? I don't buy it.
Indeed, the San Francisco Mint had quite a few projects up their sleeves in 1894, this one being another one of them. I have wondered if there is any correlation between the two? In reality, this was a gatekeeper door plaque but still evidence that the SF Mint personnel had some time on their hands?
I've grown up believing there were 24 dimes, and Steward Blay cites a mint report that backs that up. So 24 is believable to me.
What happened to them? Well, 9 are known so 15 are unaccounted for. It's entirely possible that a small hoard of them, in perfect condition, will be someday uncovered. Something like the 1933 double eagles. Wouldn't that be a body blow to the value of my dime!
However, I think it's more likely that the others were passed into circulation. I know that I spent my childhood looking through tens of thousands of dimes for one of them, and of course never found one. Maybe they were lost, one-by-one -- on the beach, dropped into a gutter, or buried for good luck in setting cement -- who knows. And let's not forget the huge coin melts following 1964.
However, it's quite possible to me that some of them are still around and loose waiting to be discovered. You can still buy bags of circulated barber dimes (or quarters and halves). Wouldn't it be a gas to go through one of them and actually find the 1894-S?!
Thank you Coin Guy 1 for the explanation what a specimen strike is. I continue to believe my 1894-S looks like a not business strike, but I could be comfortable with a designation as "specimen strike" or Stewart Blay's "Proof like."
If Mr. Trade Dollar Nut can't get us a close up of his 1894-S, perhaps you, Stewart, can at least get us close ups of an 1894 business strike, 1894 Proof, the 1894-0, and perhaps the 1893-S and 1895-S.
That lettering for "OF AMERICA"is so unusual and distinctive, I think it could a big clue to how the coin was really manufactured. This is an intellectual riddle that's been eating at me ever since I saw the dime and I think we can solve it by looking at the evidence. "Just the facts, maam" like Sargeant Joe Friday used to say on Dragnet!
Warm regards
Just Having Fun
I've tried to have my proof like dimes and my proofs imaged but it hasn't quite happened because of imaging difficulties.If this is an option, I can loan my coins to coinguy 1 to show you.
Stewart
Dale,
I'm sure Lloyd wouldn't mind having another guest at the table. However, you have to bring your 94-S
Jack
Resubmit your dime and get it in a MS66 holder!!! What the heck are you doing in Thialand? You from there? Or are you just working there, or retired. Just Curious. Been there a couple times, mainly to the islands - Phuket, Koi Samoi (sp).
P.S. Lord Master, I noticed in another thread you are concerned about the poundage of the upcoming Heritage FUN catalogs again. Maybe you should spend less time sanding limestone and more time pumping iron.
That aside, I've seen numerous Barbers, and especially seated coinage with die striations on proofs. (Though, I don't have enough money for a striated one even for myself
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
Thank you, MacCrimmon! That's exactly what's needed.
And thank you, Stewart Blay for your incredibly generous offer! ("I can loan my coins to coinguy 1 to show you"). Outside of seeing my daughter dance in D.C., this is going to be the highlight of my trip.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
<< <i>10 cents for an ice cream cone in 1894 seems like alot of money >>
Maybe she did buy the ice cream with it, but failed to say, "oh and I got change back."