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What is PSA's policy on minor surface creases?

I picked up this ORR a little while back. At first, I thought it was good looking 7, but upon closer inspection, there seems to be a minor crease on the middle-left edge of the card. It's only visible upon very close inspection and at a certain angle so it may or may not have been easily missed by the grader. My question is, does this still qualify as a 7? Or is this an example of someone over at PSA making a judgement call using thier "overall visual appeal" rule (which is never set in stone). The difference between a 7 and 6 is fairly huge and I'd hate to think I picked up yet another overgraded card.

image

Comments

  • RipublicaninMassRipublicaninMass Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭
    I have never had PSA overlook a mionor crease. The automatically become 4's or 5's regardless of a "gem mint" appearance. Sorry image
  • Brian48Brian48 Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭
    Well, that's a bummer. This is like the 3rd PSA graded card I've picked up in just as many months that I thought was overgraded. It's crap like this that made me stop doing business with BGS. Oh well, I did pay below SMR so I suppose I could take some solace in that image
  • yawie99yawie99 Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭
    Generally speaking, a wrinkle like that will drop a grade down to 5. I have had one PSA 8 card on which there was a very small wrinkle and PSA did buy the card back from me. I'm pretty sure that was back in the Charlie Kahler days. He was the former head of customer service who I always found to be quite responsive. I'm not sure of the identity of the person you'd want to talk to now or how helpful he or she will be, but this looks like a card on which PSA should make good, especially since the wrinkle is so visible in the scan.
    imageimageimageimageimageimage
  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭
    I am also under the impression that any surface wrinkle in a card automatically drops the grade to a 5 at maximum. That being said, if PSA missed a wrinkle which means the card is overgraded, they should be willing to buy it back/pay the difference between grades if they agree that they missed a wrinkle in the card and that it really should be graded a 5.
  • Make them buy it back. I personally think they should buy it back for what you paid plus give you half of the amount you paid in PSA vouchers. I think this would be a good standard for PSA to stick to. There is nothing more frustrating than overgrading and PSA should stand by their word. You should not be inconvenienced with having to talk with them, shipping etc. They made a mistake and they should own up. I have dealt with overgrading in the past, and unfortunately it is not an easy process. Expect PSA to be difficult when dealing with them.
  • Brian48Brian48 Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭
    Well, I just called them. I'll be sending the card in for inspection. The person on the phone was convinced the grade was correct even without looking at the card. I'd swear it was DBH I was talking too. Anyway, we'll see. I included a printout of the scan I posted so they won't waste time scanning over the entire card. If it turns out to be just a surface stratch and the 7 grade is correct, then I'm happy. If it's anything lower, they better stick to their guarantee.
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭
    I've never had a card with a surface wrinkle that got any higher than a 5, and nothing with a crease that went all the way through higher than a 4. On the same token, anything with a water stain has always come back a 4 as well.

    Let us know how it turns out. I'm still convinced my Walter Payton PSA 9 is way overgraded too, but I'm paranoid about sending it in to them. That Orr is 5x more valuable than my Payton, I'm curious to see what they do.

    When I called CS, I was told to send it in as a regrade, when they were finished regrading it, they would call me and someone would tell me what my compensation would be. That wasn't specific enough for me, so I chose to hold on to it.

    Good Luck.
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,435 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Well, I just called them. I'll be sending the card in for inspection. The person on the phone was convinced the grade was correct even without looking at the card. >>


    Brian
    Was that their exact words that they are "sure" there is no error?

    If so, someone needs to attend a little "charm" course on phone/business etiquette. The customer is always considered accurate until evidence is in.

    Based on some of the input here from members on how they get treated on the phone - it appears that some people make money "in spite of themselves!"

    mike
    Mike
  • Brian48Brian48 Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Well, I just called them. I'll be sending the card in for inspection. The person on the phone was convinced the grade was correct even without looking at the card. >>


    Brian
    Was that their exact words that they are "sure" there is no error?

    If so, someone needs to attend a little "charm" course on phone/business etiquette. The customer is always considered accurate until evidence is in.

    Based on some of the input here from members on how they get treated on the phone - it appears that some people make money "in spite of themselves!"

    mike >>



    Well, it was a rather lengthy discussion, but to para-phrase

    ========================================
    The grade is accurate - period. If its a 7, it's a 7. Every card is graded by four separate people. If there's a crease and the assigned grade is a seven, then it's BECAUSE of the crease that it's ONLY a 7. Meaning, otherwise, the card would be a 9 or a 10.
    ========================================

    Following that logic, then this card must clearly be perfect in ever other way (which it's obviously NOT).

    Then the discussion went on and on about how PSA guarantees the grade, there fore the grade HAS TO BE accurate. Of which I countered, if you (the company) are so sure that it's accurate all the time, then why bother having the guarantee in the first place? And if there IS a guarantee, under what condition would I qualify for it if not for the fact that I think I overpaid for a card that was incorrectly graded? Hell, if it was truely a PSA 6 or 5, I wouldn't have bought it.

    The call finally ended by the both of us agreeing to send the card and he'll walk it over to one of the graders for an opinion and then he'll ship it back if he/she says it's a 7. I'm not for one to nitpick, but it seemed very obvious he did not want me to send this card in for a second look.
  • I hope Joe Orlando reads this thread to get a little better understanding that their customer service/customer retention needs improvement. However, even if he does know, the main goal of a public corporation is to increase shareholder value. And never forget, that's what CLCU (PSA) is, a public company.
  • gameusedhoopgameusedhoop Posts: 3,592 ✭✭✭✭
    Here's a little beauty of a 9. It is definately a "Set Registry Special" as it is a 9 for registry purposes. How would you like to buy this sight unseen? What would be said if this was from 4SC or DSL?



    74 Hannah

    And no, the holder was clean, it's the card that's not.
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭


    << <i>
    ========================================
    The grade is accurate - period. If its a 7, it's a 7. Every card is graded by four separate people. If there's a crease and the assigned grade is a seven, then it's BECAUSE of the crease that it's ONLY a 7. Meaning, otherwise, the card would be a 9 or a 10.
    ========================================
    >>



    ha ha, that's EXACTLY how my conversation went with them about my Payton. They even let me know that I would be responsible for shipping both ways, regardless of the outcome.

    Keep in mind, it is in their best interest to not be wrong and to insist every grade is correct. However, it is human nature to make a mistake once in a while, and maybe it's just me, but I highly doubt that 4 graders take a look at every card that goes through that door. On high profile cards, you might get 2 opinions but I seriously doubt 4 separate graders are taking a look at every 81 Topps Common that finds its way to a graders desk. Give me a break.

    My suggestion, send Joe an email with a link to this thread and ask him to take a quick look. It can't hurt. If he/they disagree that it's a surface wrinkle and a 7 is an appropriate grade, then do what others suggested to me...sell it on ebay and buy a different one. Sounds crass, but really, what else can you do?

    I still wanna know how this turns out. image
  • ctsoxfanctsoxfan Posts: 6,246 ✭✭
    What happened to that Hannah card? It would appear to be missing the PD qualifier...
    image
  • KnucklesKnuckles Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭
    That's a shame.. I have a '51 Ted Lindsay perfect in every way but with an even less noticible surface wrinkle and it got a 4.

    The Orr is very nice though still.
    image
  • Just sold this Staubach on eBay. Has a very ugly - IMO - black streak running vertically down the card.

    image
  • A better look:

    image
  • Looks like PSA reeeeeeally screwed the pooch again... hell, if we can see it in a scan, how could one of their graders have missed such an obvious flaw? Where are you to defend PSA DBH? Isn't it a "7" if PSA says it is? I can't hear you DBH... what is your excuse this time DBH? What's that? PSA IS actuall fallible because humans make mistakes?

    That's what I thought... do everyone a favor and save it DBH. You have nothing to stand on here to defend PSA...

    Getting back to the issue at hand, that's a beautiful Orr RC, quite a shame. Can't imagine it earning anything higher than a 4 or a 5 upon further review...
  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Posts: 1,794 ✭✭
    In looking at many of the PSA 8 I got from a submission earlier, I would say that they do overlook PD like ink smears, buttholes and glops (esp. in solid colored areas). But that Hannah looks hideous not matter what.

    As far as the crease on the Orr, I never have seen such a card getting higher than a PSA 5.
  • RipublicaninMassRipublicaninMass Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭


    << <i> If it turns out to be just a surface stratch and the 7 grade is correct, >>



    I just submitted a very nice 7-8 55 bowman kaline with a "surface scratch" came back a 5!! I am certain any tyoe of paper loss, scratch or wrinkle just murders the grade. I hope I am wrong

  • Hopefully this time they'll notice the green circle on that Orr too. image

    An MK qualifier if I ever saw one.

    Good luck. Hope you get your money.

    I appealed a 59 Mays All Star once. They had given it a 5 and I saw it as a 7. They claimed there was a small indentation along one side of the card, maybe 1/4 inch long. Under high magnification I never could find it. They did bump it to a 6 though.
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    Most likely the graders simply missed the wrinkle...

    But i always wondered if the original summiter had the wrinkle soaked in water, then iron out and temporarely dissapear.

    then years later it came back.

    Most people who iron out wrinkles claim its very rare that wrinkles come back ...but very few actually hold the card for a long time to see the effects.

    I know with coin grading, certain coins can develop problems years later...does anyone how how coin grading co's deal with such issues?

    some plastic 3d cards can also make a mess years later but when they where graded they were fine.
    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • Brian48,

    The info the customer rep gave you is crap. In my experience customer service reps at PSA are just that, customer service reps not card savy people. The good ones will tell you this and help facilitate a review of the card with actual graders and will say their opinion is invalid and uneducated. I called to ask awhile back what a '33 Goudey should measure. The CS rep said let me check. He came back and said 2.5 X 3.5. I asked are you sure? ( I knew he was way off base and out of his element ) He said he was positive. I would try and get a more specific resolution on your problem from a different CS rep.

    Damian
  • Brian48Brian48 Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭
    I weep tonight. My white whale turned out to be only painted white. image

    Anyway, I sent it off. We'll see in about a week.
  • Brian48Brian48 Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭
    Just a little update. The CSR told me that once he got the card, he'd immediately get an opinion from a grader and then send the card back if the assigned grade stood. Well, the card was received by PSA over the weekend and the order has been assigned a pending status ever since. I guess this leans towards the assumption that they did notice enough issues with it to keep the card a bit longer for a more thorough review. I'm not sure if this makes me happy or sad.
  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,895 ✭✭✭
    I agree that the card deserves a 5, not a 7, and that PSA should buy it back.

    In defense of the graders, it is possible that the wrinkle wasn't there when they examined the card, but was caused later, by careless handling during the slabbing process.

    Nick
    image
    Reap the whirlwind.

    Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
  • Am i the only one that can see that the holder is tampered with??? The original PSA 7 Orr has been pulled and a replacement has been put in. See all the white around were the flip is. And the white goes down the holder half way. You got burned because if you send card in to PSA it will come back out of the holder because the card inside the holder is not a PSA 7 because the holder is tampered with. JMO
    Steve
    Die Hard Toronto Maple Leafs Fan !!
  • Brian48Brian48 Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Am i the only one that can see that the holder is tampered with??? The original PSA 7 Orr has been pulled and a replacement has been put in. See all the white around were the flip is. And the white goes down the holder half way. You got burned because if you send card in to PSA it will come back out of the holder because the card inside the holder is not a PSA 7 because the holder is tampered with. JMO
    Steve >>



    http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=443116
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