MTG fake cards on eBay (your opinion needed)

GoblinOutpost

Hi guys, I just came upon something on eBay. Needed your opinion on this as time is of the essence.

I recently bought some expensive Alpha cards. It turns out the cards are all fake. Caught by seller A before I even have to pay for the cards. Seller A told me he eventually got refunded from his seller B for the fakes and returned the fakes back to seller B. (I know both sellers ebay account names.)

Now I am noticing the same cards offering on Ebay by seller B.

I cannot say if the current cards are fakes or not, since I have never seen the original cards or the current cards listed. Of course, seller B may also be a victim who is trying to recoup his loss right now.

Because I am so far away from the incident, I really doubt I can do anything. I supposed I can inform eBay. But why would they believe me and shutdown the auctions. Seller B can always relist in the future.

I can notify the eventual buyers so they can scrutinize the cards when received. But if all they do is return the cards for refund, we are back in the same situation as seller A. The cards can still be sold later.

I can notify WOTC, but why would they believe me and intervene on some OOP cards. It's really a small problem.

Now, I have emailed with seller A when the original incident was happening, I even offered to pursue this but of course, seller A has interest first and foremost is to get his $$ back first. In doing so, he returned the cards to seller B.

The only way to stop this is to take those cards out of circulation. But that means someone has to take a loss. No one wants that. I tried to get my hands on these fakes to take them out of circulation and get my chance to examine them. But that didn't happen. (I even suggest to seller A to hand them in to WotC if he doesn't trust the fakes with me. I was planning to hand over all of them minus 2 for future reference. I think owning fakes would be a good way to help me detect them in the future.)

Any of you have any suggestion as what to do. I'm monitoring the auctions and so far, none of the people on this forum I know have bid on them yet. But as the cards change hands, we might end up being victims down the road. I am told these cards are very high quality fakes. The only weakness is the card feels thinner (or lighter?) But they are high grade quality which means some of us will end up pursuing them with the increased interest in Alpha. THe pros here can probably find more flaws, but who knows when one of us will get a hold of them.

Really, any good suggestion at all. Are there any authority (eBay, WotC, govt, ...) that can be contacted to act on this.

-- Joe

Tromagic

Joe i see fake and scam every week :
The last i saw for sure was this one:
5297759589
Before i was reporing and fighting the thief.
I saw ebay don t care of theef and paypal too ... They loose only 175 USD on a scam auction but they make 10 USD on a 200 USD transaction so the 175 USD they will give you back is ridiculous...
I can tell you i saw thing unbelivable.
I anderstand the thief ... you go on the street and steal 200 USD to someone you go in jail.
On ebay you steal 20 000 USD you get a compagnie that will send you mail that you own ebay 20 000 USD ... that s all.
No police no court nothing.
I have got robed lot.
You know the recolloring stuff ?
Now lot alpha/beta are recolored ... it mean you can never grade them.
If you have time to spend for nothing you can say that to ebay.
But if i were you i would just not buy ungraded high value cards.
Bastien

Spacebaby

caveat emptor ... let the buyer beware!

I like to know who I buy cards from, don't you.

GoblinOutpost

I can understand why it would be tough for ebay to fight this MTG fraud. They are not an MTg expert and with their system, the thief can literally walk right back in from the front door and start the dealing.

FYI, here are the 2 postings I believe are fraudulent.

8701222401
8701944519

Here is the original posting that revealed the fraud itself.

5228896127

My seller was super nice. He was only aware of the fraud after another (potential) buyer pointed to an obvious discrepancy that cannot be true. Can you spot it. Since I gave the hint, it should be easy to spot.

My beef is if this known seller can continue to operate, he could easily be making 2-4k$$ a month. And assuming he only gets caught 50% of the time, he is looking at a nice payout.

Can other post auctions (current or past) that you know are fakes.

I know we can never stamp out all fake activities. And there are scarier scenarios than the one I encountered. These are what scares me the most as a collector.

-- Joe

Thulnanth

Hey Joe,

Well, someone's lying since they imply they got the cards out of packs back in 1993 - clearly not true if they are fakes. Without tangible proof there is no way to take any legal action. To be honest, the best thing you can do is exactly what you did - post here and give everyone a heads-up. That is one of the big benefits of getting a nice community of collectors going here on the forums - information. As Steve said, it is up to the buyer to take adequate steps to protect themselves. Besides feedback, auction "feel", personal experience, and look of the merchandise, being able to come here and discuss with other "experts" will give you one more tool to aid in your cardbuying endeavors.

Take it easy,
Jared

GoblinOutpost

Well, one way to get tangible proof is to win one of those auctions.
-- Joe

Osguard

I do agree that a buyer should take every precaution.

At the same time though, I believe that the "experts" can help both the Ebay community and the MTG community by doing whatever they can to make people aware and to report incidents when they do spot them. You people ARE the professionals in that regard and are much better at spotting these situations. I think it benefits us all in the long run to keep people from getting burned and frustrated. It isn't a responsibility, but it might be a good thing to do for the community and continued growth.

A funny story and related note... Here is one collector's entry point into PSA:

I happened to be looking at an auction for a card I was interested in and it happened come across a PSA card that Spacebaby was bidding on. I couldn't believe the card was going for so much, having no idea was PSA even was. I took the time to email Steven that I was suspicious about shill-bidding in the auction he was buying from. I saw his high Ebay # and figured he already would know if that were the case, but emailed him about it anyway. HA! It was like a little-league kid warning Babe Ruth to watch out for the curve ball (I know now)! But I also said, "Hey, by the way, what is this PSA thing?"

It was Steven's enthusiasm for PSA and generous sharing of his time to email back and forth with me with anwers to my initial questions that got me interested enough to take the PSA plunge. Then, once I got in and graded a few cards, it was poor Jared who had to answer all my questions...another story, but equally appreciated!

-Tony

Thulnanth

Hey Tony,

No big - as a general "know it all", it was my pleasure

Take it easy,
Jared

Spacebaby

Hi guys,

I have bought and sold an awful lot on ebay. I really do pity those people who try to steal out of desparation. I dispise those who try to steal and have no moral inhibitions about doing so. Many of these scammers seem to be of the latter catagory.

That being said, I have rarely been burned on an auction through outright deception. If it seems fishy, I dont bite. Those scammers will get their just deserts. However, I have purchased fake cards from a seller who truely didnt know they were fake. A person who owed him money gave him the cards in payment for a debt. He really didnt know cards and did not post a scam. Due to his good feedback, I took him for his word. I got one of the cheesiest proxies imaginable. I contacted the seller and he handled it quite well. My paypal account was creditied and I mailed him back the card. To his credit, he removed the other auctions from ebay. Mistake do and can happen.

In another situation I have sold a recolored card. It was ina batch of alphas I bought raw. It obviously wasnt worth grading. While lising cards one night I listed it raw. Frankly, I really didnt look at it closely or completely missed that it was re-colored. As soon as the buyer objected, I returned the money AND shipping costs. Once I received the card back I realized the error and relisted the card correctly as re-colored.

The only time I have takin a hit , was receiving a "reback collector" edition timetwister and mox. I had purchased other betas from this seller out of Sigapore (there's a warning sign) and he sent me some nice cards. When his P9 came up, I purchased with confidence it was real. They were great copies. However, I am aware of the subtle differences. I knew they were not real. The seller never emailed me again. I resold the cards as proxies where it was very evident the cards were not represented as authentic. I got about 1/2 my money back this way.

The sellers reaction will tell you if a "bad" card shipped was a mistake. Nobody is perfect. If a person makes an honest mistake and owns up to it, no one is harmed. This must be distinguished from outright harm. Remember that if it semms too good to be true, then it probably is. My best advise is buy from me. No, I'm kidding. Yet, I feel it is important to research your sellers. I do like to buy from people I have established relationships with. On some levels, to find the gems ungraded you must trust inexperieced sellers. They are the one who dont realize the card should be graded and sell it raw. There is more risk because the reward is potentially greater.

Finally, If the seller is unknow or of low feedback, make sure that payment is made through paypal AND the seller offers paypal buyer protection. If they dont offer buyers protection or paypal at all, be wary. Even if you get the buyers protection, it can be impossible to get a refund as that protection does not warranty condition. For example, someone sells a card as mint. It arrive in poor condition. Paypal buyers protection does not cover it. Once Bastien got a obviosly fradulent beta starter from a seller. Paypal made him get proof from a dealer that it was fraudulent. He sent me the cards and I wrote a long letter and inventory list explaining why it was not truely represented. They accepted that and sent him the mone.

So even if you have protection, it can be hard to collect it. The best protection is to put reigns on our own avarice. Use good judgement and avoid risk. That is what ultimately will prevent you from being scammed. Good luck!!!!

Tap4black

Another good trick to use when paying for large items via paypal is to fund the purchase through your credit card instead of your balance. Should you receive something that is not legitimate or in worse condition than was advertised, your credit card company is much more likely to issue you a refund should you file a chargeback. Many times a seller just makes a mistake, it happens. If you as the buyer approaches him politely and explains the issue you are much more likely to get the problem resolved than if you come to accusing him of stealing from you. Common sense is the best policy.

If I remember correctly, I sold a starter of Alpha to Rudy some 8 months ago. I had purchased the deck sealed from a dealer in the midwest that I will not name here and when it was opened he found the inner wrapper removed and the rares missing. All I could do was offer a refund for the tampered deck and eat the loss. When the deck was searched and by whom will never be known but this is a classic example how it might not be the sellers or buyers fault and you just have to work it out. Needless to say I do not buy any more sealed high end product from that dealer and Rudy has continued to purchase cards from my shop. I mean at least he did until I ran out of PSA 10's to sell him ............

Len
Tap4black

GoblinOutpost

Well said. Steven.

I certainly have no qualm with honest sellers making mistakes. They will usually live up to them and make restitution. THe case I brought up is very blatant. In fact, the bad seller (since he was notified of the bad cards) are likely just reselling them to the next batch of unsuspecting victims.

I'm still not done pursuing the current bad auctions. I am still hoping I can find someone who not only care but can also act on the situation.

-- Joe

Tromagic

Yes, i totaly agree with Steven. Exept that you should buy from me instade of him
It remind me that story about the beta booster ... I bought it on ebay from seller with good feedback. I received it ... I was on the phone with my brother. I told him I just recieved the booster.... i look the booster to see if it was selled or at least look selled and the glue was all remouved on the behind... i asked the seller refund me he refused. He said it was closed.
I opened it totaly to see all the cards. It was only bad card not in good shape for some.
Then i filled claim. Long wait and ebay asked me to proof it was recieved open or that those cards couldn t be found inside a selaed booster.
They give you one week... I ran all arround in the shop near my place to find someone doing this for me. No one wanted do this all was scared to get involve in this.
Then i start offering money for the service ... no one wanted to help me with this.
In the shop on of the seller told me you should not buy from ebay but from me LOL .
At the end i asked to the seller i bought some card on ebay. One seller told me to do the letter and put a name of any shop on it. He told me they won t call him or anything. But it was too risky and as i got robed i didn t want to look like i tryed to lie on a letter.
Finaly, 2 days before the dead line Steven told me he wasn t looking his mail and now he saw i need help and he look the card and made the letter
And he refused the money i was offering
I bided lot on his auction the next week
Well if i was not good at detecting scam i am better and better ... Now every thing look suspicious to me LOL !
But i lost lot money at begin.
Need to have a twisted mind not to get robed on ebay

Last think that happened to me was a seller he said s/h is 10 USD and shiping is free with BIN. I use BIN and he ask me 13 USD for shiping for 1 card. I say how ? he tell me insurance is 5 USD (lie insurance was 3.2 USD) and shiping is free but handeling not and guess handeling was 8 USD ... and shiping 2 USD LOL !
I said i won t pay. He filled a claim. I have a stricke now on my account and 2 neg feedback but i left him 2 neg feedback too
Tromagic

AlphaInvestments

Len,

Wow that was a long time ago...never thought id be talking to you a lot 8 months later. lol

Anyways yea i was very surprised when i opened that outter wrapper....which came off very easily...i later noticed the bottom had 2 dots of glue where it looked to have been resealed. this is my guess.

But for the record everyone, Len defintlny handled everything perfectly and i later bought most of his Alpha 10's i think...

Anywho but it shows you really never know until its opened....

-Rudy
Alpha_Investments

Osguard

Tap4Black:

<< <i>Another good trick to use when paying for large items via paypal is to fund the purchase through your credit card instead of your balance. >>



Hi Len -

You bring up an interesting decision point here. The Paypal Buyers Protection only comes into play if a person uses their bank account. So in your experience it is better for a buyer to rely on their credit card company for a claim rather than on the Paypal resolution process? Please share your thoughts on this.

I have had to use buyer protection only once with a claim against a power seller who claims he had his store broken into, which delayed shipping many of his orders by over a month. I'm sympathetic to that, but his communication was the worst; all I ask is that a seller communicates and I'm plenty flexible. But using the Paypal claims process seemed painfully slow. The seller didn't really respond to the Paypal claims process but did eventually (2 months later) get me the cards that I had paid for.

-Tony

GoblinOutpost

It's much easier to dispute a charge on a credit card. I think they call it a charge back where the sellers account is credited. The credit card company will fight hard for the card owner in my experience. Plus you get the full amount back.

For the eBay protection, there is at least a $25 processing fee (which effectively discourage any small claims). I think it is similar for paypal protection, but this I think also requires confirmed address to work. And bothebay/[aypal caps the limit for a claim & also at most 3 claims per yrs.

If you are using a credit card with some sort of reward plan (air miles, 1% cash back, etc.), it's an extra bonus to use it. But the receiving paypal account must NOT be a basic paypal account.

-- Joe

tmmoose

Hi all,

I was having an idle Saturday afternoon and came accross the following which may be of interest given the discussions above. Effectively what it says is that if you pay using your credit card on paypal you are in breach of their terms and conditions if you then get your credit card company to reverse the charge.

So you can do it once, and after that they'll effectively shut your paypal account down - worth knowing that paying by credit card doesn't necessarily afford you any extra protection (depending on whether you want to sacrifice your paypal account in the process!)

http://www.paypalsucks.com/credit-card-waiver.shtml

The site is quite interesting more generally as well.

- Michael

Tromagic

Yes i agree with Michael. I did it once for 550 USD. The seller took money and ran away with it. i said it was unautorised payment but then my paypal account went to -550 USD. and they blocked it and asked me to refund them ... They told me they will try get my money back from seller. But they never got my money back.
I don t think they are doing anything to get my money back anyway. I think they don t care.
Once, a guy robed me 50 USD. I filled claim. I won with paypal (easy : i paid delivery confirmation and the seller provided a wrong one). Paypal refund me 25 USD and they try to get the 25 left from the seller account. they can t because account is empty (like usual). Seller got account closed because he robe 2-3 more poeple. I wait 2 month. I recieved email from the theeef insulting me (stop boating with your unlimited set, you just max your credit cards, i have a set unlimited mint too .... and more and more ). I think the guy is frustrated or he got problem in life ... Anyway i look how he contacted me ... and guess ! his account was open again.
I sent mail to Bill Coob (president of ebay), to safe harbor and lot poeple and nothing. The seller sold a lotus and many unlimited... He robed every body. I ask paypal to give me the 25 USD back. I told them the seller that robed me just sold a lotus and got the money. They told me they got no account at his name. I told them the buyer paypaled him so they must have the money.
Finaly they told me they make me a favor and give me back the 25 USD.
Then 2 month later the seller got 20 feedback negative and got his account closed.
Now it s still closed.
I recieved 25 USD 1 month ago telling me the seller refunded me the 25 USD ... I got 75 USD back when i paid only 50 USD finaly ....
But i still have no news of my 550 USD from the first seller that robed me.
I think paypal/ebay care of getting there money from transaction but they realy don t care of the buyer that lost their money.
They keep claiming : " we are here to link 2 poeples to make business that s all "
It reminds me when i was diving in the red sea, the teacher almost killed me. But when he saw his mistake he said : " I am here just to show the fish "

We filled a claim at the FBI with all the other guy that got robed from the seller that robed me 550 USD but we still don t have news !
I went to the police too, to ask what i could do against the seller the robed me on the legend set and they told me this :
"Maby it look strange to you but if you tell me the guy robed you 550 USD in the street now and give me his name we go straight to his home and arrest him but if you tell me he robed you on ebay we can t do nothing "

I think that s why more and more poeple robe on ebay. It so easy !!!
Bastien

GoblinOutpost

Hey Michael and Bastien.

Thanks for sharing your stories. I had a few bad cases, too.

Yeah, that's the sad part for this society. Financial robberies not through physical confrontation is just getting slap on the wrist. There are no immediate threat to the body. And it is so much easier to do it online, the thief just sit at home to commit fraud. I wonder if this can be appropriately called soiety evolution. As long as the problem is consider "small", few actions if any will be taken.

I'm sure there are a lot of shilling, non-delivery of goods, etc. that happens online. Look at ebay, how manytransactions do they do in an hour. I'm sure the reported incident rate is less than 1%. And few of the 1% victims will leave ebay since where else can they go. Captive customers are very good for a company. Until the problem gets bigger, don't expect too much more from them. Also, the bartering system has flaws. It would be difficult to change without alienating the customers.

That's my opinion of the state of affair today. I personally believe that given time, better systems will be found to protect the honest people.

Also, thanks for the link you provided, Michael. It dawn on me that unlike a written contract, I don't recall even seeing an online contract that one can agree to only portions of it. It's the take it or leave it approach.

-- Joe

tmmoose

While I'm clearly in paypal sort of mood, I was glancing through some other forums and came across something else which I didn't realise.

When you upgrade your account to accept credit/debit card payments, you are charged a fee (3.4% + a fixed amount) per transaction. I didn't realised that after you upgraded your account that these applied to ALL transactions regardless of whether or not the transaction was funded using a credit/debit card. Normal (non-CC/DC) transactions in a personal account are free.

Apparently you can 'downgrade' you account back again, but can only do this once.

Does anyone have a feel for whether not accepting credit cards is a particular issue when selling on ebay? I'm inclined to downgrade back again, simply because I suspect there isn't a very high proportion of people which insist in using a credit card. (Particular as paypal seems to encourage people to use their bank account as the default option).

Possibly not a discussion for these boards - but anyone else have a view?

- Michael

GoblinOutpost

Hi Michael.

I have a business paypal account. But I also have a non-business paypal account, too. I ran into the same situation like you because 1 item I sold several yrs ago the buyer wanted to pay by credit card. Contacted paypal and they say I can have a business and a non-business account. The only catch is you will need another bank account to make full use of the 2nd paypal account.

I'm still working on how to get my $$ back out from my 3rd paypal account without having to open another bank account. I really just want to cancel that one. Created that stupid thing and put a few $$ in there. And then finding out I can't SEND money out of the freaking account. Grrrrrrr

With 2 accounts, you can funnel $$ from the business -> regular account for free (up to a limit per month). The drawback to the business acount is the extra fee but you now can provide a HUGE convenience to many customers.

BTW, my opinion is this is certainly relevant to our MTG discussion. Anything that can educate us about being smarter buyers are welcome indeed. I'll even be willling to entertain some personal/family whining as long as it is not overly excessive.

-- Joe

Spacebaby

Hey Michael,

As a seller, I look at the paypal fee as the cost of doing business. I dont want the hassle of multiple accounts, so I just keep my premier account. As a buyer, I almost always fund my purchase larger purchases through a credit card. I often make payments over $1,000.00 and occasionally these will top $10,000.00. When making such payments, I use a credit card for several reasons:

1) If something shady happens I have the added security of my credit card company
2) I want the airline miles from my credit cards
3) I don't ususally keep thousands in extra cash on paypal or my checking account

So as a buyer, I really do require sellers to accept credit card payments if they want my business. As many can attest to, I am a good buyer. If I want the card, I will bid and pay top dollar.

Its up to you, but I have found that not taking credit cards, has cost me bidders in the past. The bidders that I lost were usually those who were interested in the higher end stuff. This is just one persons opinion. If you want my bid, you really should accept credit cards.

Thulnanth

Hey Steven,



Take it easy,
Jared

tmmoose

Having been through the process of downgrading my account, I simulataneously had a number of auctions end on ebay and found that more than 50% of people wanted to pay by credit card, so have re-upgraded my account. Based on this, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people use their credit card to fund their purchases and will just leave that account upgraded.

I suspect I don't sell sufficient volume of stuff on ebay to warrant having a personal account as well and trying to herd people to different accounts depending on which type of payment they want to use.

<waves his PSA 10 Library of Alexandria at Spacebaby - You mean if you wanted to buy this? :-)> Only joking, I wish I had one!

Steven - Just out of interest - How high was your maximum bid on that PSA 10 Beta Lotus when it was up for auction? (Assuming you're willing to disclose) I had my alarm set for 4am to go and bid on that and win it when it came up. I think when the time came I was just too lazy to get out of bed and go bid. lol I think I e-mailed you after you won it to see if you wanted to sell it, but you didn't for some reason. ;-)

I think I found the PSA Registry shortly after that.

- Michael

Spacebaby

Spacebaby

OOPs...

I bouth mine on ebay for $6000. My high bid was somewhere between 8000-8500. I can tell everyone that I sold another PSA 10 beta black lotus for over $9500.00. Yall can figure out where that one went. Ask Len what he wants for the 10 alpha lotus...Insane!

Tap4black

INSANE YOU CALL ME

I figure if I cannot fully cover the remodel work on my house with the sale of this card I would rather keep it for bragging rights

Len
Tap4black

tmmoose

Go on then Len ... I'll bite.

How much are you looking for?

- Michael