The abundance of the US market is spoiling us

SYRACUSIAN

.. Europeans but is spoiling Americans too.The abundance in high grade ,reasonably priced Darkside stuff I mean. I just realized, that during a few months of collecting Switzerland, I think I've seen,watched online,handled and owned more superb gem unc coins than if I was getting them from Europe in 5 years.I often watch Swiss and German ebay, but also the big auction houses. Although recent common dates are rarely encountered in the latter, the availability of MS65+ coins in the US, slabbed or raw is surprising, the average quality in Europe is way lower and not necessarily less expensive, often the opposite.

I'm glad that the US market is spoiling me this way and I do not have to put up with mediocrity. I wonder if other members have ever thought of this advantage, mainly brought by the internet of course.Is there a similar phenomenon with G.Britain and Germany?Or other countries? It wasn't that long ago that I would have been content with the best I could get from dealers in my city,and the occasional coin show.

tonyhar

I agree with you D. without access to the vast american/canadian market my collection would be much lower in grade, smaller in size and much more expensive. The duplicates I sell (and 95%) go across the atlantic with a 60/40 division between US and Canada.

NJMark1

Here is my 2 cents worth on this subject. I really don't think Americans are being spoiled by an abundance of High Grade coins because of the internet. I personally think the "Golden Years" of collecting Darkside are over. Why? Well Here are a few reasons

1) Years ago I could walk into a show or dealer ask for darkside coins and usually get a box or bin of jumbled up coinage that the dealer had no idea of the value or scarcity of the coins. Great Pickings to be found!
2) Now most of the time better coins are identified and priced accordingly in flips or certified holders. Seems now everone is a "expert"in Darkside.
3) Prices are rising. This is great news for the sellers. However it's not great news for buyers like myself. Sure my collection is growing in value but adding to it is becoming tougher. I was averaging less then 50% of the Krause Value now it's over 80% and on some coins over 100%
4)I live in a area where I am fortunate to have access to many coin dealers and a coin show every weekend if I want to travel less then a hour. So access to coins was never a problem for me. Choice of what to buy was.
5) I regret not buying fewer high Value coins instead of many medium to lower value coins years ago.
6) Tougher coins are becoming harder to find. I think the interest in Darkside is bringing out a lot of "speculation" buying by people that are not really true collectors but just looking to turn over a fast buck.

Anyway thats how I see it

Mark

docday2003

wow I live in an area where if I travel five hours, I can attend two small coin shows a year!

Sylvestius

I don't generally buy based on grade anymore, i now usually buy based upon eye appeal. Of course the two can be related, i find EF coins with all the detail and the slightest of wear to be my favourite, so i gravitate towards EF. That said though i've seen some nasty EFs and i've seen some gorgeous AUs so grade isn't the be and end all for me. It's eye appeal.

I'd rather have nice looking coins, failing that i'll buy sola historica, i.e Stephen pennies.


Mind you collecting medieval does kinda take much of the grade aspect out of the equation, although i still buy coins where grading is considered more important. 18th century for instance.

cacheman

<< <i>6) Tougher coins are becoming harder to find. I think the interest in Darkside is bringing out a lot of "speculation" buying by people that are not really true collectors but just looking to turn over a fast buck. >>



This could well describe several posters to this forum...

1jester

Dimitri, I must agree with your thesis that the European market simply doesn't offer the depth or quality or quantity of high quality coins. I don't know why that is, but one thing I've noticed at high-level auctions is that rarity seems to count much more than grade or quality. It doesn't seem to matter if a given coin is scratched, bent, hairlined, discolored, worn, abused, etc. In other words, either the buyers or sellers, or both, don't seem to mind low-quality (problem) coins. It does to me! But I seem to see an ambivalence in Europe as far as these qualities are concerned, which is evident especially in the way dealers and customers alike will paw coins, dropping them on the counter, etc. It drives me nuts and more than once I've picked out a coin for bidding, only to see that come auction day that exact coin (for example, a nice proof gold) will have bee fingerprinted or worse. No joke--these are actual true stories. I suppose the advent of slabbing might be a factor in turning things around. Let's hope, at least, that people's habits improve and they start to treat coins with respect (first rule of numismatics: hold the coin by the edges--which is often-ignored by even the better dealers).

Sylvestius

I'll hold my hand up and confess yes i also practice the art of coin dropping. In fact one dealer did the same thing to my Æthelstan penny when i asked him to authenticate it, six inches is a long way for an Anglo-Saxon coin to fall, but it rang silver. Coin dropping is a way of life over here.

I drop sovereigns every now and again for authentication purposes. In fact the dealer accidentally dropped one of his Victorian shield reverse sovereigns right off the counter (this was an accident), it rolled across the floor. I picked it up and handed it back to him, he never even complained about it having dropped.

Ninety per cent of the time i handle coins by the edges, although if i'm determining weight purposes then i'll hold it very briefly reverse down in the palm. I never use finger tips on the obverse/reverse surfaces though.

I can live with scratches, edge knocks, digs etc. Hairlines and cleaning bothers me, bright colourful tones bother me even more.


Infact colourful toning bothers me alot more than a major edge knock. So yeah i'm quite happy to settle for lower quality coins, rarity is more important to me.

SYRACUSIAN

Jester had described this situation with the amateur handling of the coins before, but I thought he was exaggerating a little. But ever since I started observing this , I don't think he exaggerates at all, it's sometimes worse than that! Dropping an F-VF gold coin to check its authenticity by the sound is not a problem, the way customers and dealers touch and handle the coins is.Let alone their terrible PVC vinyl flips in which the coins reside for years.

And I guess that NJMark's observation is the downside of all this. Still, let's not forget that Krause often undervalues many coins, so even at 80-100% they can be a good deal.

Sylvestius, has the internet multiplied your buying sources, or are you still buying most of your coins from local dealers? It doesn't matter what grade each one collects, I was referring to a particular market where high grades is the rule, but the same principle applies to everybody. Unless someone wants to see the coin in hand first.

Sylvestius

I buy most of mine from loacal dealers sight seen, or from coin shows.

I occasionally buy from internet based dealers but only if i can see a picture of the coin and then i generally only deal with a select few. Andy Bruce, Ron Fyfe, Saltford Coins, Jean Elsen.

The internet certainly has multiplied my buying sources, before i got the internet i bought all of my coins from Ron Fyfe, and some from the shop at York, that was it.

Now i have a list of about 10 places that i'll buy coins from all due to the internet.

bosox

I agree also, Dimitri. I know that over the past two years Canadian large cents have increased dramatically in price as U.S. collectors discover their scarcity and value. The bad news is that the price has risen. The good news is that many high quality pieces, hidden safety deposit boxes for decades, have been sold into the rising market. The availability of these outstanding pieces is very exciting.

Rob

secondrepublic

I agree with a lot of the above comments. However, in my area of specialty (Poland 1919-1939), most of the "supply" shows up in Poland. Once in a while something shows up on the US market, from a dealer or on Ebay. And when stuff shows up in the US, the prices tend to be lower than in Poland. However, the market for nicer Polish material in the US is just really slow, and has been for a long time.

I am told that a lot of the high quality Polish material is in the US. The Karolkiewicz collection sold in 2000 is an example of that. For some reason, though, higher-end Polish coins haven't been showing up for sale in in the US in the last few years.

The market for Polish coins in Poland, which I follow fairly closely, has a lot of "supply" in the area I collect, but the vast majority of the more expensive stuff is just poor quality. I am thinking particularly of early 20th century pattern coins (probas) sold in the major Polish auction houses. A lot of pieces have been cleaned or otherwise impaired. Of the pattern coins sold at auction, probably only 15% or less are the kind of quality I would want in my collection. It's rare to see real high quality material. And prices are high, regardless of quality. I hope this doesn't sound unfair or elitist, but a lot of Polish collectors don't seem to care that much about quality - or maybe they are just happy to get something rare into their collections.

1jester

"The market for Polish coins in Poland, which I follow fairly closely, has a lot of "supply" in the area I collect, but the vast majority of the more expensive stuff is just poor quality. I am thinking particularly of early 20th century pattern coins (probas) sold in the major Polish auction houses. A lot of pieces have been cleaned or otherwise impaired. Of the pattern coins sold at auction, probably only 15% or less are the kind of quality I would want in my collection. It's rare to see real high quality material. And prices are high, regardless of quality. I hope this doesn't sound unfair or elitist, but a lot of Polish collectors don't seem to care that much about quality - or maybe they are just happy to get something rare into their collections." --2ndRep

Exactly my experience. For WCN auctions, I'd go through the lots several times prior to bidding, and even with this reputable outfit, many coins available are impaired, and even mishandled by the principles as well as the customers; I've personally been at their shop and watched people take the coins out of their PVC holders and fondle them. Bringing it to their attention doesn't seem to affect their very cavalier behavior. That one aspect alone is enough for me not to consign my material with them; I don't want my coins damaged while in somebody's care. It's really a sad situation, because if you observe this behavior from the top dealers, how can you expect the lesser dealers to behave better? Coins are being ruined before my eyes.

Sylvestius

Of course you know where this attitude comes from though Jester;

"It was jingling around in someone's pocket 200 years ago with a load of other coins... one more handling won't hurt it"...

Unfortunately sometimes they're wrong.

secondrepublic

1Jester - I've only been to the WCN store once, in 2002, so I don't have much experience with how they (and collectors) handle coins in the shop. (I'll watch a little more closely next time I come out - maybe in May '06.) But to get a sense of how these coins have been mishandled, all one needs to do is take a look at the vast number of impaired, cleaned, whizzed, handled Polish pieces that come on the market. The auction sales in Poland showcase a lot of these pieces (many of which get high prices). And generally the item descriptions won't tell you about impairments to the coin, unless it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Karl Stephens warned me about a lot of the problems with Polish pieces from Poland a few years ago. Apparently, for a long time, the desire of collectors over there was to have shiny coins with no patina. You can predict what the results were.

I had thought that today was different. Some of the younger and more sophisticated collectors in Poland now want original coins and won't buy stuff that's been impaired and gone through the wringer. But probably a lot of the older collectors (and inexperienced ones) haven't changed their ways.

I had heard that the market in Brazil (of all places) was similar - a lot of cleaned coins, and most people didn't seem to care too much.

I guess coming at it from an American perspective, we have different expectations. I like original pieces, toning is fine but not essential, and definitely no distracting major hairlines. I don't buy coins just to have them or just to complete a set. I buy coins that I like and want to look at and admire, and I sell off the ones I don't like to look at. After all, this is a hobby - you can buy whatever you want, it's your choice. Sometimes I'll buy a really nice AU and have that in my collection, instead of an unimpressive UNC coin. The eye appeal is key.

spoon

I wholeheartedly agree on all points. BUT! if you're looking for minors 200+ years old (I'm thinking your more obscure German states, etc), well, that market is still only available in Europe. Even then the handling and condition is still a major issue. In America it seems no one wants kreuzers when the talers are so much prettier. (Admittedly, they aren't all that easy to come by even in Germany.)

Sylvestius

Germany is another country where cleaned coins are prolific, at least this is according to a dealer friend of mine based there.

spoon

<< <i>Germany is another country where cleaned coins are prolific, at least this is according to a dealer friend of mine based there. >>

Unfortunately that's more true than I'd like... a real shame since a lot of the old German silver tends to tone up really nicely. (even you'd like some of it, Syl! )

An otherwise UNC, toned, but scrubbed DOA rupie:

Sylvestius

<< <i>...even you'd like some of it, Syl! >>




My reputation precedes me...

newsman

<< <i>I had heard that the market in Brazil (of all places) was similar - a lot of cleaned coins, and most people didn't seem to care too much. >>



It's the tropical climate. Most coins are either cleaned or toned black and corroded by the heat and humidity. Most of my original pieces come either from dealers outside Brazil or the ones down there who understand what U.S. collectors want.

wybrit

Like NJMark, I was spoiled in the mid nineties. Here is a tale of two business trips to San Jose.

In 1996, I spent two and a half days buying coins and ran out of time before I ran out of tables. I had enough coins to fill a safety deposit box at the hotel. I also found a fantastic George V 1911 proof set in one of the shops there. The same dealer also "tormented" me with a 1934 UNC crown, the key date.

In 2005, I went to the same show and it took two hours to discern that there were no real buying opportunities for British coins. This time, I spent pocket change. At the coin shop, I still found a few good bits but nothing like the quality and quantity once seen there.

The big break for Europeans is now the best European coinage that migrated here over the years is showing up in the mass market instead of being hidden in dark boxes in the back of a coin shop safe. Dealers are selling out their entire collections to Brits, etc. California and Colorado used to be great stomping grounds for British coin collecting. They are now wastelands (MN was always a wasteland by comparison).

satootoko

<< <i>six inches is a long way for an Anglo-Saxon coin to fall, but it rang silver. Coin dropping is a way of life over here. >>

A six-inch fall is nothing - in Honduras a street seller shocked the out of me by throwing coins as hard as he could at the cobblestones in the street, just so I could hear them "ring silver".

Sylvestius

Ah but were they 1000 years old and very thin and possibly brittle?