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What exactly are these coins?

gxseriesgxseries Posts: 423
in World & Ancient Coins Forum
I was reading my Russian numis. books but I have no clue what the coins on the left are. These are supposely the coins that were used in mass overstriking. Here are two images of them scanned from the book.

image
image

I am suspecting that they are Austrian, Dutch and or Swedish...
List of my partial coin list: My Coin List

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    BergBerg Posts: 63
    Havent looked that carefully, but they aint swedish. Russian shouldnt be excluded.
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    BergBerg Posts: 63
    Sorry, didnt read that it was from a "Russian numis", thus my conclusion sounds rather strange... image
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    tbirde56tbirde56 Posts: 2,161
    Looks like Austrian and maybe German states coins.
    Brad Swain

    World Coin & PM Collector
    My Coin Info Pages <> My All Experts Profile
    image
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    BergBerg Posts: 63
    I might be totaly wrong here abot that coin but there is a Philip IIII of Brabant in 1634... part of the Spanish Empire aswell as the Holy-Roman Empire thoose days iirc....
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    BergBerg Posts: 63
    The inscriptions Burg (Burgund) and Luxem (Luxemburg) seem to indicate that area atleast...
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    gxseriesgxseries Posts: 423
    Err yes, please exclude the last XIII text, they are both Russian coins. I just don't know what the original coins were. You see, some, if not quite a fair bit of really early Imperial Russian coins, pre 1800s were overstriked. And that is part of my so called "research" to find the originals of an Anna ruble that I have...

    image

    And I guess I came across a book that explained showed all these overstriked, but looks like nothing on the Anna ruble image
    List of my partial coin list: My Coin List
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    gxseriesgxseries Posts: 423
    Sorry, TTT.

    Would anyone else like to give these coins another try? image 17th century European coins aren't really my field so I am struggling a bit here. image
    List of my partial coin list: My Coin List
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    BergBerg Posts: 63
    Well two of the coins seem to say CAROLUS V = Charles V. I suppose that could be THE Charles V, King of Spain and Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. The doubled headed eagle supports that idea aswell. I might have missed it but are any dates visible?
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    LynchLynch Posts: 299
    The coin in plate X looks like it might be a ducat from one of the Austrian states but I do not recognize the arms on the reverse.

    The coins in plate XI and the smaller coin in plate XII appear to be Austrian States thalers and half thalers under the "Holy Roman Empire".

    The large coin in plate XII dated 1634 looks like it is a silver patagon from one of the provinces of the Spanish Netherlands.

    What is the book that you found these pictures in?
    "Think of the Press as a great keyboard on which the Government can play" – Joseph Goebbels

    "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media" - William Colby, former CIA director
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    LynchLynch Posts: 299
    The thaler in plate XI closely resembles this coin, except that the coin in the book has what looks like a small eagle on the shield at 6 o'clock (below the large eagle) rather than the acorn of Augsburg in the linked coin.

    I think the plate XI thaler is dated (15)46.
    "Think of the Press as a great keyboard on which the Government can play" – Joseph Goebbels

    "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media" - William Colby, former CIA director
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    LynchLynch Posts: 299
    The half thaler in plate XII closely resembles this thaler, except for some differences in the arms and the eagle rather than an acorn at 6 o'clock.
    "Think of the Press as a great keyboard on which the Government can play" – Joseph Goebbels

    "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media" - William Colby, former CIA director
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    gxseriesgxseries Posts: 423
    Wow thanks for the info, now it's making some excellent progress!

    I found these plates in a Russian numisatic book that concerns about overstriked coins in the early 18th century. This material is exceeding hard to find and I believe this is just the tip of the iceburg. Well, from what I am guessing, the original coins too must be pretty scarce nowadays as not too many people are able to respond right away... On the other hand, the Russian coins that you see there too are ridiciously scarce and if you can find one, usually the price tag is shocking pricy, least forget that overstriked coins usually have some odd prenium added to it.

    The reason why overstriking was done mainly because in the past Russia didn't have sufficient raw material and hence it was supposely easier to overstrike foreign coins. There is also NO figure available of how many such coins were overstriked. Who knows if the original coins became rare because the Russians "ruined" them for their overstriking program.

    Kuhli has managed to figure out one of the coins shown in plate XII and I quote directly:

    "The coin dated 1634 (4th coin) is from the Spanish Netherlands, under the reign of Philip IV. Depending on the size, it is a ½ patagon (±35mm, 14g) or a patagon (±40.5mm,28g).

    Link

    Still searching for the others. "

    I guess all I need to know is what is the last gold coin shown in plate X... image

    Thanks! image
    List of my partial coin list: My Coin List
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    gxseriesgxseries Posts: 423
    To illustrate what I mean of an overstriked coin, here is one example currently on auction - unforutunately I don't have that amount of money to buy it to find out what exactly the underlying coin is image

    Auction link

    Good luck to anyone who is going to bid on it...
    List of my partial coin list: My Coin List
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